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Deleted member 23272

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Considering its population and economy, China's military is still relatively weak. Hopefully the administration recognizes and rectifies that mistake ASAP.
Economy? From what I see its not too common that a country with China's per capita GDP and HDI level (ie. Brazil, Thailand, Malaysia, and Mexico) can manage to have 5th generation fighter jets, catapult launched aircraft carriers, hypersonic missiles, sophisticated electronic warfare, and destroyers matching that of the Ticonderoga class. Can you elaborate on why you think China punches below its weight in population, since to me population only factors into military strength with respect to the pool eligible to be recruited, rather than factors such as technological prowess, officer competency, logistics, and infantry training.

It's stating the obvious China's capabilities are far bellows the US's, but considering where its at developmentally it can only keep going up.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
On the subject of Song military, Song's military spending was the highest among all Chinese dynasties. It had the largest standing army, the heaviest armoured troops, the highest ratio of armoured soldiers and best weaponry (both number and quality). It was the most technologically advanced army in the area and time. It was also among the richest in terms of GDP. Yet it had the weakest military. It was repeatedly defeated and annilated by forces of much worse weaponry and numbers, from Liao, Jin and Yuan/Mongol.

So weaponry and number isn't something useful in judging the military being weak or strong. It is how you use them and how you use your allies to achieve your objectives. Yuan used large amount of Khitans unders Jin rule to fight Jin, then used Han troops under Jin rule to fight Song (southern). Han (dynasty) used large Xiongnu and central asian troops to fight Xionnu. Tang used large Turkic troops to fight rivalry Turks. Qing used large Han troops to defeat Ming, then large Khalkha Mongol troops to defeat Dzungar Mongol. All these "allies" were not under direct rule of the emperor but vassels, so these dynasties own troop were relatively much smaller than Song.
None of the historical Chinese dynasties outside of maybe the Qin had great standing armies and the blame for that has to do with the life style of native Chinese vs. "barbarians." The best weapons in the world can't make up for the fact that "barbarians" were raised from birth in violent, chaotic environments where it was kill or be killed. Nurhaci was 23 when he became chieftain of his tribe, 25 when he launched his first war, and 34 when he crushed his other Jurchen enemies and became de facto ruler.

By contrast, the average Chinese would be most unfortunate to see battle even once during his entire life, and maintaining a large standing army was next to impossible so the vast majority of soldiers were drafted farm boys with a few months of basic training. Combined with the lack of horses and riding skills - again due to life style - it's no surprise that Chinese armies punched below their weight the vast majority of times vs. the "barbarians" even with superior equipment; and even less of a surprise that the Warring States armies fared relatively better than later Chinese dynasties, since during the Warring States, far more Chinese actually grew up fighting than farming.

Any way, we don't live in the age of farmers vs. "barbarians" any more. Industrialized armies all tend to be drawn from the same sort of population - sedentary civilians - so it actually is about technology, economy, and organizational competence these days.
 
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BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Brazil's food production capacity increased rapidly. By the end of this year it will be capable of covering all soybeans imports of China. China can drastically reduce imports from countries like Canada, US and Australia by promoting development of Brazilian and Russian commodities. Brazilian soybean is a massive success story. Knowing China's paramount policy of supplier diversity, they won't full end imports from Australia, etc though.

 
D

Deleted member 23272

Guest
None of the historical Chinese dynasties outside of maybe the Qin had great standing armies and the blame for that has to do with the life style of native Chinese vs. "barbarians." The best weapons in the world can't make up for the fact that "barbarians" were raised from birth in violent, chaotic environments where it was kill or be killed. Nurhaci was 23 when he became chieftain of his tribe, 25 when he launched his first war, and 34 when he crushed his other Jurchen enemies and became de facto ruler.

By contrast, the average Chinese would be most unfortunate to see battle even once during his entire life, and maintaining a large standing army was next to impossible so the vast majority of soldiers were drafted farm boys with a few months of basic training. Combined with the lack of horses and riding skills - again due to life style - it's no surprise that Chinese armies punched below their weight the vast majority of times vs. the "barbarians" even with superior equipment; and even less of a surprise that the Warring States armies fared relatively better than later Chinese dynasties, since during the Warring States, far more Chinese actually grew up fighting than farming.

Any way, we don't live in the age of farmers vs. "barbarians" any more. Industrialized armies all tend to be drawn from the same sort of population - sedentary civilians - so it actually is about technology, economy, and organizational competence these days.
Is that really the case? The Song was notable in that it lost against barbarian tribes even when it was at the zenith of its power precisely because of its poor policy with respect to military leadership. Every other time that China lost battles or even parts of the country to barbarian tribes, it was already in a state of decline or weak government like the Jin Dynasty. Whenever the country was united and strong, they usually performed well against enemies whether it was the Han or Tang against the Xiongnu or Gokturks, or even the Ming against the Mongol Tribes outside of the Tumu crisis.

I find that China with such a long history has its failures more amplified, compared to the Romans where they had their moment and then when it came crashing down that it was it for them.
 

Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
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[...]

The bank said Pickard’s allegations are “incorrect and unsubstantiated” after a “comprehensive examination of documentary materials” and over 30 interviews with those in senior positions, including the bank’s president, senior management and staff.

It said there was no evidence that “staff membership of any political party from any country” had interfered with performance and there have never been any allegations of political influence over decision-making.

[...]

The review – which the bank said was carried out by a “multinational and gender-balanced” group of 10 staffers – made suggestions about strengthening the hiring process for leadership positions.

These included “a mandatory comprehensive background check, reference check with at least the last five organisations, including leadership profiling assessment, and improving the” functioning of staff grievance mechanisms.”

[...]

Pickard told the Post: “They still think my allegations are baseless, and now they come out with a rubbish report that is a discreditable pack of lies and half-truths at best.
Acts like a joke, gets treated like a joke.

“[AIIB] is slimming me with low-character findings, like saying they would improve background checks for future hiring as if there’s something wrong with me for seeing them as they really are.”
Guy picked the wrong joint thinking they'd pander to his entitled butt. Would've had better luck finding a job at the White Powder House instead, like this... life form -

Screen-Shot-2022-11-30-at-8.16.19-PM.jpg

Edit: Added spoiler tag as requested.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
None of the historical Chinese dynasties outside of maybe the Qin had great standing armies and the blame for that has to do with the life style of native Chinese vs. "barbarians." The best weapons in the world can't make up for the fact that "barbarians" were raised from birth in violent, chaotic environments where it was kill or be killed. Nurhaci was 23 when he became chieftain of his tribe, 25 when he launched his first war, and 34 when he crushed his other Jurchen enemies and became de facto ruler.

By contrast, the average Chinese would be most unfortunate to see battle even once during his entire life, and maintaining a large standing army was next to impossible so the vast majority of soldiers were drafted farm boys with a few months of basic training. Combined with the lack of horses and riding skills - again due to life style - it's no surprise that Chinese armies punched below their weight the vast majority of times vs. the "barbarians" even with superior equipment; and even less of a surprise that the Warring States armies fared relatively better than later Chinese dynasties, since during the Warring States, far more Chinese actually grew up fighting than farming.

Any way, we don't live in the age of farmers vs. "barbarians" any more. Industrialized armies all tend to be drawn from the same sort of population - sedentary civilians - so it actually is about technology, economy, and organizational competence these days.
Well, although the settled farming society has its inherite disadvantages like you said, I can't say that life style of settled farming is much of a draw back when properly addressed. For example, Han and Tang had many state owned horse breeding ground near the frontier regions. Whoever raised the horses were certainly good at riding them just like the nomads. Most Chinese dynasties also had the system of hereditary military system such as 府兵 in Tang, 军屯 in Han, the banner men in Qing. These population spent much more time in military excersize besides farming, they don't pay tax or crops except anything enough to feed themselves, pretty much like the nomads spending time in hurding their livestocks.

The result is that many dynasties did very well against "barbarians". Han and Tang's standing armies weren't big but very competent, they annialated the states of Xiongnu and Turks, especially Xionnu disapeared as an entity all together. If you read the record of those expedition of Han and Tang, you will find that their numbers were only higher than their oponents because they had people to transport food, while the nomads'food (live stocks) had legs. One can't really use that number difference to judge the fighting strength.

What made Song standing out is 1 they lost the horse breeding ground, therefor lost mobility and speed, 2 very bad administration and deep mistrust of military due to the fact that the dynasty was founded by military coup. The 2nd point is the decisive factor as the soldiers were poorly treated (just better than criminal), the generals feared their own emperors than the enemis. The 1st point was much less of an issue compared to the 2nd as Ming dynasty's funding showed. Ming dynasty started from the south just like Song without many horses and yet overthrown Yuan who still held most of the cavalry forces. Ming was even able to sack Karakorum, the capital of Northern Yuan.

The conclusion is that although number and quality of arms, life-style do play important roles, nothing is as decisive as orgnizational efficiency and determination.
 

GZDRefugee

Junior Member
Registered Member
On the subject of Song military, Song's military spending was the highest among all Chinese dynasties. It had the largest standing army, the heaviest armoured troops, the highest ratio of armoured soldiers and best weaponry (both number and quality). It was the most technologically advanced army in the area and time. It was also among the richest in terms of GDP. Yet it had the weakest military. It was repeatedly defeated and annilated by forces of much worse weaponry and numbers, from Liao, Jin and Yuan/Mongol.

So weaponry and number isn't something useful in judging the military being weak or strong. It is how you use them and how you use your allies to achieve your objectives. Yuan used large amount of Khitans unders Jin rule to fight Jin, then used Han troops under Jin rule to fight Song (southern). Han (dynasty) used large Xiongnu and central asian troops to fight Xionnu. Tang used large Turkic troops to fight rivalry Turks. Qing used large Han troops to defeat Ming, then large Khalkha Mongol troops to defeat Dzungar Mongol. All these "allies" were not under direct rule of the emperor but vassels, so these dynasties own troop were relatively much smaller than Song.
Areas that China still need to address:
  • Professional officer corp
  • Shortstaff in technical ability to operate new equipment
  • Centralizing command structure
  • Standardizing training across the branch level
  • Munition, armour, and component stockpile
Much of the above can be attributed to growing pains. However, these issues must be nipped in the bud.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Areas that China still need to address:
  • Professional officer corp
  • Shortstaff in technical ability to operate new equipment
  • Centralizing command structure
  • Standardizing training across the branch level
  • Munition, armour, and component stockpile
Much of the above can be attributed to growing pains. However, these issues must be nipped in the bud.
In terms of instructors and training they actually have more than enough for the roles. Especially pilot training, where Chinese pilots now get more hours than pre-covid US, which obviously had more hours than current US.

It's hard to tell exactly how integrated the branches are, but at least one indicator is that they can do inter-service CEC under combat conditions. That might not sound like much, but most NATO militaries cannot do it, more or less only US.

It's platforms and manufacturing lines which makes the main bottleneck. And in terms of navy and airforce, more raw numbers in recruitment is needed as well.

What they have currently is very good quality wise. What is needed is more of the same, but in much larger numbers. More J-20s, more destroyers, more drones, more missiles, employed with similar tactics and trainings as established doctrine.
 
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