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eprash

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is possibly the worst place to do so but I have to put this in writing for later:



You mean the fact that it was written by a jingoistic pseudointellectual masturbator Liu Cixin?

When I look back at the previous decade in SFF I have to say that The Three Body Problem was the single dumbest and most pseudointellectual piece of literature I've read and it only went worse in the latter novels. I will never touch anything else he writes without hazmat suit on. And in that sense I find it fitting that it got a Hugo right between between the fetishistic asshat Scalzi and rabid drivel-spewing demented wokester Jemisin. Hazmat suits apply as well.

While TBP was tremendously engaging on a cultural level I found it positively insulting as a sci-fi enthusiast. It was the equivalent of writing an entire novel about furry porn while exessively quoting genderqueer theory. And thats mostly because his "sci-fi" is in reality a convoluted pseudointellectual metaphor for his political drivel and blatant personal issues. It is "sci-fi" not sci-fi.

There are two types of authors:
  • those who seek understanding and use story as a laboratory - primarily obsessive
  • those who claim understanding and use story as a sermon - primarily narcissistic
I was brought up on so called "golden age" of sci-fi. Specifically being Polish that was Stanislaw Lem, possibly world's most underrated sci-fi author in all of history. If you think he's not underrated it's pretty obvious you haven't read him and lack understanding of the time at which it was written. He's likely the best cultural thing that ever came out of my country and most people ignore it because it's too smart for them. The only other person that in my view has similar "science-fiction" potential is Clarke. Asimov is prolific but too derivative of existing ideas. The others don't even register except as authors of individual works with potential. But they are not consistent.

These people were the first type of author. Explorers.

Liu Cixin is the second type, as are all contemporary "woke" SFF writers in the west. The difference is that their fetishistic obsession lies elsewhere. While western wokesters masturbate to furry porn in space Liu Cixin masturbates to Chinese spaceships and people confuse that for sci-fi.

Nope. The entirety of Remembrance trilogy was Liu proclaiming "look how smart and wise I am" when in reality he's an obnoxious retard. My entire experience of reading the novels was "wait.. he didn't mean it seriously... oh... he can't be this f*** dumb". But he did and he was. It was frustrating. The only thing good about it was that it was Chinese i.e. original to me as a western reader.

Want good sci-fi? Pick someone intelligent to write it. With 1+ billion people it shouldn't be too hard.

This was a rant. Now here's a philosophical remark I wanted to save for later.



And never will be.

See the "science fiction" that you refer to is something very specific in terms of cultural evolution. It's a product of a very peculiar type of culture that I would call culture of paradigm shift. The paradigm shifts are natural occurrences and cause transformations of the entire society and the way it perceives reality around itself. They can be cultural, political and technological. You may recognize that from the period of early internet however... that paradigm shift was too quick to establish a lasting culture that is it came and went and we see the period of transition as a fuzzy period of what came before and after the change. We see the periods of cultural stability in clear terms but the period of change as a chaotic and confusing time.

In evolutionary theory it's called punctuated equilibrium and it's a natural dynamic that underpins all of life and broader evolutionary change.

Science fiction is a product of people for whom that paradigm shift wasn't a period in their lives but rather constituted the entirety of their understanding of the world. And as far as science fiction goes that was only possible during the industrial revolution.

Now here's the thing. Only "the west" has undergone the industrial revolution. Other cultures like China have only undergone industrial revolution i.e. industrialization. China hasn't invented the scientific method and the scientific-industrial paradigm and the industry and the socio-political movements associated with it and most importantly those changes haven't affected the entirety of society.

That process is happening now after all of it has been already invented. The consequence of that is that the way that the average Chinese person perceives the change that is occurring right now is more efficiently expressed in the metahporical language of mythology or "fantasy".

Art is two things at the same time: a meta-language and a method of coping for cultures experiencing trauma. Art conveys knowledge that emerges sub-consciously from a society and there are two types of knowledge:
  • transformative knowledge i.e. the knowledge of the change - causes and outcomes, successess and failures and mental states associated with them
  • evolved or adopted knowledge i.e. the knowledge of successful solution without the mental state that brought it about.
Specifically religions are evolved knowledge while science is transformative knowledge. However science can be misunderstood as religion and regularly is.

For China and Russia/Soviet Union industrialization was like adoption of new religion which is also why they both experienced periods of violent upheaval and societal disaster: Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, Stalinist Collectivization etc. Those are usually associated with religious revolutions i.e. impositions of evolved knowledge without adaptation. In Europe/West we had the adaptation so all the upheavals and societal disasters were spread along the period of adaptation. In fact France had the revolution precisely because in political terms it was the most backward society of all major cultures.

Western sci-fi authors were born in the period of change that had human speed. Their parents lived in periods of such change as often did their grandparents. Their children and grandchildren would also live in it (in their view of reality) so they came up with ideas that formed science fiction. Science fiction begins in 19th century and ends in 20th century. The entire preceding century was the setup. What came before and after was mythology because mythology is the default mode of culture.

So let's generalize: Science fiction is a type of fantasy with science as religion and technology as magic.

Science fiction is uniquely western because only western societies had to cope culturally with industrial and scientific revolutions. Everyone else adopted ready solutions and that usually leads to a culture that looks more like mythological tale of magic rather than sci-fi.
  • West did "how the hell do I make a magic sword so it doesn't become cursed somehow".
  • China does "here's a magic sword, but beware of this curse, off you go on your quest".
In the west we are already moving toward the mythological. Star Wars is that. Star Trek was the last twitch of "real" sci-fi and look where it ended. Consider that 2001 Space Oddyssey was made in 1968. Then came a brief wave of cyberpunk and even that is gone swallowed by Japanese nonsense.

And what's Japanese cultural creations? Kaiju and Gundams. Myths. Because Japan adopted rather than transformed.

Evangelion is positively hilarious. It's like suburban soccermoms starting yoga and meditation. And not in a sexy way.

It's like the difference between quirky adventure tales of colonial Britain and the everyday frontier tales of 18th and 19th century America. Why was "the western" so successful in America but failed elsewhere? Because you have to understand the western to do it well. You may as well try making kung fu movies in the west. None works.

It's like the difference between contemporary western adoption of ancient Chinese philosophical practices (Dao, Tai Chi, Feng Shui) and how those same practices are perceived in China. The "magic" was "science" of the ancient past. The stories that explored it were the "science fiction" of that era.

I'm very interested in the processes of cultural change (being a product of such moment in time) so I easily see the parallels between things like the emergence of Confucianism and Daoism and European "Enligthenment". Different times, different settings and different needs but the same process. This is why chicks doing yoga or tai chi to look sexy are so stupid to me. I get the point of them much as Chinese creators don't get the point of sci-fi.

China will never have sci-fi. It's literally trying to speak western while talking Chinese. It's like westerners using Chinese lettes for tatoos or ornament. To people in China it's fun. To people who grew up with sci-fi it's stupid. Because it's the difference between needing to know the curse and avoiding it.
Well, Where's your B̶u̶g̶a̶t̶t̶i̶ best selling novel?
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
The US wasn’t liberal 60 years ago. Liberalism is a more recent development due to the US losing the initial ideological Cold War to the USSR. Liberalism was basically born during the Civil Rights movement, before then it was a rather blatant form of white supremacism and that was not attractive to anyone outside the West, hence the popularity of Communism through most of the fifties and sixties.
I have my doubts that liberalism will ever be as effective of a motivator as socialism, fascism or religion. Nobody will kill and die for LGBT BBQ rights. On the other hand how many people were willing to kill and be killed for say... Islam?

The most primal human driving forces are community, nationalism and religion because they shape our everyday. Liberalism explicitly rejects community and nationalism while trying to replace traditional religions which inspire awe, art and literature with something that people naturally will think is ugly, but aren't allowed to say is ugly.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Actually, a bit deeper inspection of some of the "nonsensical" decisions such as the soldier shooting the lighter core in frustration, the drama about leaving the protagonist's uncle, and disabling MOSS computer shows they were deliberate inclusions to make powerful statements on how modern decision making relies on technology, AI and hard science / cold logic but those things should not and cannot take precedence over human feeling, family bonds, and the fundamental parts of Chinese society. On the same vein, even though it sounds stupid and futile, Chinese people would rather work to save the entire Mother Earth (Moving the Mountain) than escape their homeland on spaceship Noah's Arks to colonize foreign lands (a more Western, Christian theme). Movie feels like a commentary on current evolution and conflicts facing Chinese society today, and where we need to guide technology in the future. It as a whole feels like a microcosm of Chinese sci-fi.

I agree with you, I feel the themes displayed are mature and complex, but suffer from lack of skill in execution. They have too many good ideas and have to shove it into a single 3 hour movie. As a result, events and decisions are a little jarring and out-of-the-blue due to lack of character or narrative build up. Movie includes too many "need to go here to do this to save the world" to keep the tension high.

But overall I think right now it's exactly what Chinese audience wants and needs from the nation's biggest sci-fi movie. We can always refine the execution later on, what is important is we represent the ideas right.
Well I'm just not a fan of Liu Cixin's works. I just feel that the Chinese sci-fi genre is still in its relative infancy, and there are better Chinese style sci-fi stories that are yet to be told. Just please, no more CJ7, cartoon kangaroos, and flying planets. Hopefully future writers can start telling some more mature stories. Having said that, at least the Chinese cinema is trying out new concepts. The sci-fi movies in South Korea and Russia are shameless derivatives of Hollywood films. The sci-fi movies in Bollywood are just comical.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't know about the movie but the book was good. There are many Western sci-fi movies that are set in "real" universe, I don't see the issue there. Plus a lot of things do make sense from a physical point of view in the book, the main contention I have is that building such drives would most likely require almost fully exhausting Earth's reserves and is incredibly complex from the engineering standpoint if we use the current engines as a reference point but it is a science FICTION work after all. The main conflict between Takers and Leavers is written very well in the book imo, plus it is explored from both the ideological (both sides make sense and tbh IRL I would also probably side with the "antagonist" Leavers) AND individual levels (protagonist and his Japanese wife who end up on the opposing sides).

Most issues I have with some Chinese movies is the tendency of actors to overact in some emotion-heavy moments which makes it look cringe. Other than that, special effects in recent Chinese movies are a notable step up from the previous gen and many praise TWE for being visually pleasing.
Being overly emotional is a trend in TV. I remember a US critic lamenting how quiet shows of strength or disappointment on Star Trek TNG were replaced by belligerence and rage on later Star Treks like First Contact.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well I'm just not a fan of Liu Cixin's works. I just feel that the Chinese sci-fi genre is still in its relative infancy, and there are better Chinese style sci-fi stories that are yet to be told. Just please, no more CJ7, cartoon kangaroos, and flying planets. Hopefully future writers can start telling some more mature stories. Having said that, at least the Chinese cinema is trying out new concepts. The sci-fi movies in South Korea and Russia are shameless derivatives of Hollywood films. The sci-fi movies in Bollywood are just comical.
Wandering Earth is suitable for an international movie because it's inoffensive. Liu Cixin wrote way more books that westerners would cry at.

Example: Full Spectrum Jamming which is about WW3 between NATO and Russia (fought with real tech like tanks, planes and nukes), and when Russia is about to lose, they use their last superweapon to destabilize the corona to produce a super EMP to brick everyone's computers and say fuck you to the world. NATO is portrayed as an evil aggressor while Russian cosmonauts are portrayed as tragic heroes.

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Now you understand why his more realistic books are for domestic reading only. They depict the entire west either losing or being fucked just like everyone else.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Wandering Earth is suitable for an international movie because it's inoffensive. Liu Cixin wrote way more books that westerners would cry at.

Example: Full Spectrum Jamming which is about WW3 between NATO and Russia (fought with real tech like tanks, planes and nukes), and when Russia is about to lose, they use their last superweapon to destabilize the corona to produce a super EMP to brick everyone's computers and say fuck you to the world. NATO is portrayed as an evil aggressor while Russian cosmonauts are portrayed as tragic heroes.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Now you understand why his more realistic books are for domestic reading only. They depict the entire west either losing or being fucked just like everyone else.
China should actually promote more of those works. We already have plenty of American jingoistic crap like World War Z, and Tom Clancy's. What's the point of being inoffensive with today's political climate? Especially when the fictional enemy is the West? Don't want to offend the West? Come on, seriously?
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
China should actually promote more of those works. We already have plenty of American jingoistic crap like World War Z, and Tom Clancy's. What's the point of being inoffensive with today's political climate? Especially when the fictional enemy is the West? Don't want to offend the West? Come on, seriously?
Unfortunately the movie industry doesn't want to because many of the directors and workers have an inferiority complex to Hollywood, and these things take time. And even Hollywood had to change Red Dawn from China to North Korea.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Wandering Earth is suitable for an international movie because it's inoffensive. Liu Cixin wrote way more books that westerners would cry at.

Example: Full Spectrum Jamming which is about WW3 between NATO and Russia (fought with real tech like tanks, planes and nukes), and when Russia is about to lose, they use their last superweapon to destabilize the corona to produce a super EMP to brick everyone's computers and say fuck you to the world. NATO is portrayed as an evil aggressor while Russian cosmonauts are portrayed as tragic heroes.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Now you understand why his more realistic books are for domestic reading only. They depict the entire west either losing or being fucked just like everyone else.
I wish that book will be translated in English so that I can hand out some copies of the book for people to read, comprehend, and contemplate. Too many books written are ALL TOO WESTERN CENTRIC and whenever there's a translation of books that are not of the western indoctrination they dilute the translation which loses the books meaning and purpose along with the authors intent.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Funny how I still recall some months ago - That a few here in this forum claimed that "soft power is of absolutely no use in the geopolitical fight between superpowers".

The thing is - Not a lot of people outside of the military circle talk about military stuff everyday. But there are fvck tons of people everywhere who talking movies, dramas, songs and games. Every. Single. Day.


I believe I need to knock this sentence onto this forum wall for everyone here to actually make sense and understand.

While China is now equipped with the capability to militarily go toe-to-toe with the US in her own front yard (i.e. WestPac), yet China is nowhere near the US when it comes to soft power influence and control projection.

Besides, soft power isn't just about building bridges, schools, airports and hospitals. It is about connecting, managing, and even controlling the minds & hearts of the targeted audience & population.

Just this one simple question is enough: "How often do Chinese people talk about American movies? Meanwhile, how often do American people talk about Chinese movies?"

TL;DR - China needs to do A WHOLE LOT MORE if she intends to stand toe-to-toe with the US (and her allies with far-reaching soft power prowess, i.e. South Korea and Japan) in the soft power battlefield.
I feel very strongly about this and we can debate better in the Soft Power Thread that this is no soft power. I have written extensively on this in that thread to absolutely no coherent counter-argument. Those who covet "soft power" are generally confused about what was intended to constitute "soft power" and what is actually an extension of hard power. For China's "soft power" to rise, it really only needs to futher develop its hard power until it is ahead of America's. Trying purposefully to build "soft power" from a position of inferior hard power is simply a fool's errand, begging others to like you when their hands are tied to your stronger rival.

Furthermore, the competition for influence is highly skewed towards the US as it is for a multitude of factors, none of which can be addressed by any charm offensive or push by China. Firstly, the USD is American power in a maritime world; American sanctions are what will bite if you support China's rise instead of American tyranny. To dismantle this, the yuan needs to be a viable alternative to the dollar and it is in clear progress. Secondly, hard power gives you the stage to spread your views, which people tend to think is soft power. But few understand that the stage is more important than your message. The message is not clever; it is simply to support us instead of them, but the stage that amplifies your message is built through hard power and that alone. If your stage is lesser than America's stage, your voice will be drowned out. As long as American hard power reigns supreme, they can threaten sanctions to force your target to simply shut you up and close your stage down. China addresses this by growing its hard power. Lastly, America has, through the last few decades since WWII, used its power to build deep channels of corruption and connections in every important (and many unimportant) country's political systems, channels that it can simply call upon to spread its influence when needed. China doesn't have that and it while it is making huge inroads in some places, others are more uncertain. Oftentimes, obvious progress cannot be made until Chinese hard power has displaced American hard power.
 
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