Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

“If you had 600 million to 750 million over five years just to purchase new combat aircraft (to equipment three fighter squadrons of 18 aircraft each). How would you invest the funds?” This is assuming that there are 2 to 3 AWAC aircraft and that the existing fleet of 34+/- A-4ARs are still flying

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that's 600 to 750 mil US$ per year for 5 years? or 600-750 million US dollars in total.

if it is 600-750 mil in total...

It;s either 24 J10s or 40 FC-1s.
that's assuming airframe only no missiles.

may be China wants to open up S.American market so they will give FAA a discount.

go for J-10s the squadron size has to shrink. (a test eval squadron with 4x2 seaters and4 1-seater and 2 operational squadron with 8 singles seats each), essentially a PLA regiment sized formation.

I would go for J-10. more punch.

realistically 4 ship from a squadron would be kept on alter anyways.
rest would in maintainenous.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Scratch said:

If you want three full SQs of fighters with that amount of money, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to achieve that even with buying FC-1. For the time being, you could do with aircraft that are stripped of A-G capabilities, as far as that saves any money.
And then you'll have A-4s with western weapons, avionics and engines, and FC-1s with chinese ones, or maybe israeli if possible for little money. Might be easier on the logistics. But there's no real alternative, IMO. For economy reasons, I also believe it should be a single engined fighter.
However, with a limited budget, I favor more cheaper aircraft over a few expensive ones.

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Yes with the limited budget of 750 million the best that can be achived would be two squadrons at best. However, I believe the Pakistani FC-1 can also use western weapon systems such as the AIM-9L, GBU-10, GBU12, Martra Durandal, Mk-20 in addition to the chinese systems.
After all Argentine (and other latin american countries) currently uses a mix of Western, Israeli and Russian weapon systems.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The FAA has always utilized 18 aircraft squadrons. So one squadron of J-10s with short range and BVR missles is what can be obtained. Maybe is the aircraft are refurbished J-10A from PLAAF stock, two squadrons of twelve aircraft could be formed?

I wonder if the Chinese would permit a maintenance and minor reassemble facility at the FMA factory in Cordoba?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

The FAA has always utilized 18 aircraft squadrons. So one squadron of J-10s with short range and BVR missles is what can be obtained. Maybe is the aircraft are refurbished J-10A from PLAAF stock, two squadrons of twelve aircraft could be formed?

I wonder if the Chinese would permit a maintenance and minor reassemble facility at the FMA factory in Cordoba?

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2x12 is about the top limit. assuming super sale prices. J-10As

Assume Argentina aerospace industries wants it, one can set up a support facility along with engine rebuilt factory. business case would not just be for Argentina may be for the entire south american continent for future sales in that region.
some sort of a long term arrangement where the initial investment would make sense. I am sure AVIC is interested in expanding that market.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Yes with the limited budget of 750 million the best that can be achived would be two squadrons at best. However, I believe the Pakistani FC-1 can also use western weapon systems such as the AIM-9L, GBU-10, GBU12, Martra Durandal, Mk-20 in addition to the chinese systems.
After all Argentine (and other latin american countries) currently uses a mix of Western, Israeli and Russian weapon systems.

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FC-1 also uses that brazilian Anti radiation missile doesn't it?

interesting connection here.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

If you get a good deal with AVIC, get other neighbours into the deal and get to make it an economic endeavor it would probably be a good deal getting J-10. Still with a max of 24 A/C, there are those on scheduled maintanance, repair, training. You might end up with 15-20 available aircraft, or more in a surge, that still need to be equipped, maintained and pilots trained with extra money. If you go for air policing only and have some time to wait it would be a good start for a longterm solution.
If you need just good enough all around stuff quicker, I'd say two SQs well equipped FC-1 and use any extra money for 2 to 3 Y-7 or CN-295 AEW assets.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Personally I like the way the J-10 looks, and from what I have read in Sino Defense it is a very capable aircraft. PLAAF seams to be quite smitten with the aircraft as well. Another reason why I like the J-10 is the AL-31 turbofan. The powerplant has an excellent reputation for reliability and shear brut force. Additionally it offers the possibility of an upgrade to it’s thrust vectoring cousin the AL-41 and the large airframe provides an advantage for upgrading the avionic ten to fifteen years down the road.

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Actually, I think the PLAAF does not like how short the lives of AL31s are or how frequently they need to be overhauled.

The scenario of purchasing pre-used/refurbished J-10s is an excellent opportunity. It would be interesting to see if something like that could play out. Unfortunately you and I and the other forum member aren’t in charge of national procurement. The PLAAFs mixture of the J-10 and J-11 is actually and excellent way of incorporating the same engine for two different combat aircraft, similar to the F-16 and F-15 mix in the USAF.

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Except that the PLAAF J11 (and carrier borne J15) fleet is switching to all WS10A for new builds, and may retro-fit WS10As onto older J11s and other Flankers once WS10A production picks up enough for that to be possible.

With the J10B flying with the WS10A as well now, I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of AL31s in PLA service.

To address another statement you presented. I don’t think that the military or the next civilian government will be eyeing the Malvinas. That issue has been put to bed and it would be political and economic suicide for these two nations to go to war. The main adversary of Argentina at the present time is Chile for two rezones. The first is the overlapping claim in the Antarctic, and the second (and most important is that Chile has always wanted the mineral (and petroleum rich) Patagonia for it’s own. So long legs on the combat aircraft is not the current requirement. I would have to say that it is defending again a Chilean attack and having sufficient aircraft to achieve air superiority and have the ability to counter attack.

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Unless Argentina is to officially give up its claim on the Falklands/Malvinas, then it is still a live issue and a scenario that must be considered for all major future weapons deals.

Since even you are still referring to the islands as the Malvinas instead of the Falklands, I have a feeling the issue is less settled than you would care to admit.

Considering these new jets will likely be the principle combat aircraft of the FAA for the next 20-25 years, maybe even longer, it would be a massive mistake to not consider the Falklands/Malvinas scenario in the selection.

After all, a great many things could happen in such a long time, and it is better to have the option in my view.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Regarding the $750m challenge, well I think Scratch has made an excellent point about teaming up with a friendly neighbor for a combined buy.

If you are only getting 20-40 aircraft, you are not going to be getting much of a bulk purchase discount, never mind ToT or local servicing/repair deals.

If Argentina can get Brazil to sign up for a large purchase also, then I am sure CAC would be happy to cut you a deal. The FAA can even piggy back on the Brazilian deal, so if Brazil gets ToT and local assembly as part of the deal, then maybe Argentina's birds can come off the Brazilian line for extra savings.

Even if China does not allow a J10 production line to be set up abroad, even if they agree to set up a local maintenance/overhaul facility, that will still present the FAA with massive operational and logistics savings.

Realistically, I think the JF17 would be the most likely choice because of costs and availability, and also because CAC and Pakistan is pretty keen to break its export duck with the Thunder and so may be more agreeable on the price.

However, I think the J10 is a much better plane and far better suited for the FAA's current and long term possible needs because of its longer range, better radar/avionics and greater upgrade potential. However, since the JF17 is slated to get IFR, range may not be as much of an issue if the FAA also commits to some tankers.

However, the only way I can see the FAA affording J10s is if the PLAAF was willing to do a refurbishment deal with current PLAAF J10As.

Even Pakistan would count itself lucky if China allows the export of J10Bs to them, and with the PLAAF wanting to build up its J10B fleet first, I think it will near the 2020 mark before the FAA gets J10Bs delivered by the time the PLA allows it to be exported and the production line gets enough spare capacity.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Good points really. But practically I don't think Brazil will opt for J-10A in it's F-X2 program. Even though there's a massive slash to the 2011 defense budget to curb federal spending and inflation. Given how long a final desicion might still take, they won't have to actually pay for the planes until two or three years from now. And the general outlook for the Brazilian economy is rather good. With that in mind I don't believe they'll trash Gripen NG / Rafale / SuperHornet for J-10A. And there's a political dimension as well.
Other than that I can't think of another country in South America that's currently looking for an advanced new fighter with the money to pay for it.
So in the end, it really comes down to JF-17. Maybe with some new tweaks, or future upgrade options. Isn't Argentina in the process of buying five brazilien KC-390 tankers anyway? Get two or three AEW aircraft as well, and I think your pretty well served.
MiG-35 is probably overdoing it and the South Korean F/A-50 was cancled. AMX and F-1 are to little I guess. Can't think of anything else.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

plawolf said:

If you are only getting 20-40 aircraft, you are not going to be getting much of a bulk purchase discount, never mind ToT or local servicing/repair deals.

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Thirty or so aircraft would do just fine. There are moneys in the defense budget available for maintenance. After all they have been keeping all they museum vintage Mirages and Neshers flying, and those old planes require a lot of man hour plus parts are harder to come by. So I don’t for see that as an issue.

plawolf said:

Even if China does not allow a J10 production line to be set up abroad, even if they agree to set up a local maintenance/overhaul facility, that will still present the FAA with massive operational and logistics savings.

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That’s what I’m hope would happen. That a maintenance facility can be put in place. After all Argentina has built the Pucara, The Pampa and refurbished the A-4M to A-4AR’s (with assistance for Lockheed Martin)

plawolf said:

However, I think the J10 is a much better plane and far better suited for the FAA's current and long term possible needs because of its longer range, better radar/avionics and greater upgrade potential. However, since the JF17 is slated to get IFR, range may not be as much of an issue if the FAA also commits to some tankers.

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Agreed. All things being equal (which they’re not) Just being a larger aircraft permits more room for growth. The larger radom also allows for a larger radar system and earlier detection of treat aircraft. Also four Il-76 or converted 707 tankers would be good to have.

plawolf said:

Since even you are still referring to the islands as the Malvinas instead of the Falklands, I have a feeling the issue is less settled than you would care to admit.

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You may be correct, but remember that the French also call the islands “Les Malouines” and Germany in French is called “L'Allemagne”, and in German Deutschland, which do not sound alike. So as a Spanish speaker, for me, the islands will be called "Las islas Malvinas". No animosity intended or implied

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