Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Hi, this is a nice topic.

Miragedriver said:

The Su-27/Su-30/J-11 would be an incredible aircraft for the FAA to operate. The only drawback is the cost, which would make these fine machines unobtainable.

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i think j-11 is not for export due to russia demand on china, no?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

druid84 said:

Speaking of cost does anyone know the potential budget of Argentina and is there any possibility of them joining with Brazil to buy fighters? I know they are part of Brazils transport aircraft program and I think might be getting help from them with submarines.

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Funny you should ask that as just today they have announced an increase in their defence budget but as yet i haven't seen any figures.I know they are very keen on building their own nuclear powered submarines and claim to be capable of it.As for buying fighters from Brazil ,IMO ( just a casual observer)Argentina,Brazil and even Venezuela will grow very close to each other strategically so the possiblity is high.In saying that,i don't imagine a lot of money to be pouring into their defence procurements.


Edit: some figures

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

zoom said:

I know they are very keen on building their own nuclear powered submarines and claim to be capable of it.

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I'd like to see them try it and build something that's actually quiet (along the line of a proper SSN). I doubt they would be successful, unless they got someone like Russia to help them out. And I don't see Moscow selling valuable technology like that to a country like Argentina - i.e. not going to shell out tens of billions of dollars on Russia equipment to sweeten the deal.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I'd like to see them try it and build something that's actually quiet

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Don't hold your breath.Argentine politicians can give their one unique brand of Iranian style bluster at times.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Mr T said:

I'd like to see them try it and build something that's actually quiet (along the line of a proper SSN). I doubt they would be successful, unless they got someone like Russia to help them out. And I don't see Moscow selling valuable technology like that to a country like Argentina - i.e. not going to shell out tens of billions of dollars on Russia equipment to sweeten the deal.

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Argentina at one time actually did some secret research to build a nuclear bomb, before deciding to stop by UN demands (I think that's the story).

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Mr T said:

I'd like to see them try it and build something that's actually quiet (along the line of a proper SSN). I doubt they would be successful, unless they got someone like Russia to help them out. And I don't see Moscow selling valuable technology like that to a country like Argentina - i.e. not going to shell out tens of billions of dollars on Russia equipment to sweeten the deal.

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Granted that a nuclear submarine would not be at the same level as America Russian or even English SSN it will be a first step into the nuclear submarine arena. Argentina was one of the first countries in Latin America to have nuclear generating facilities and has over the last half century developed a safe and efficient nuclear power industry (I know this since my father was a nuclear engineer and designed the facilities.
However when designing a nuclear submarine there are many different disciplines involved; naval architecture, electronics, weapon systems, propulsion, just to name a few. All of these need to be choreographed to build an effective submarine. The engineers with the skills to apply the trade exist and can be called on to preformed the design of the system. Argentine will most likely combine efforts with Brazil to develop this naval platform. They will also most likely obtain assistance from the French.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

zoom said:

Funny you should ask that as just today they have announced an increase in their defence budget but as yet i haven't seen any figures.I know they are very keen on building their own nuclear powered submarines and claim to be capable of it.As for buying fighters from Brazil ,IMO ( just a casual observer)Argentina,Brazil and even Venezuela will grow very close to each other strategically so the possiblity is high.In saying that,i don't imagine a lot of money to be pouring into their defence procurements.

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Edit: some figures

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Thank you for the video new clip, it was very informative.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

At least the Mirage F-1s utilize the same (upgraded version) engine as the Mirage III and V. This will help a tremendous amount in the incorporation of the aircraft to the FAA. The Mirage 2000 will be a good match again the F-16s provided they have the most modern missiles from France.

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The Atar 9K will have only support from SNECMA until 2020, perhaps a little more, but not far from 2025. It's only postpone the problem until that date. The Mirage 2000 is by far a better choice.

The reason I mentioned the Mig-23 is because in all official combat reports the Mig-23 has always beat the Mirage F-1. The Mig’s could be purchase for next to nothing and upgraded with some more modern avionics. At least it would be a modernized 3rd generation aircraft that could be obtain inexpensively. The Russian equivalent of “Top Gun” used Mig-23’s in “slash and dash” attacks on Mig-29s and Su-27s with a high degree of success. These aircraft would not fare will in a dogfight, but utilized with AWAC support could inflict damage to oncoming fighters (or attack aircraft). They could then leave the dogfight to the Su-27, JF-17, J-10, Mirage 2000 ext…

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I'm sorry, but you can't measure the fighter's performance only by its combat reports, remember than any air combat is never equal to the next or previous, and every conflict have its unique circunstances, the aircraft performance can be affected by an arms embargo, lack of trained pilots. lack of spares, poor tactics and strategy, etc... In Malvinas by example, the Mirage IIIEA was unable to exploit its superior performance against the Sea Harrier because it lacks of an In-Flight Refuelling Probe to have the sufficient fuel to employ its full capabilities. And so on...

I don't think than obtain the Su-27/30 can be impossible for the FAA; as I mentioned before, exists a batch of second-hand Su-30s in KnAAPo than you can request at a fraction of a cost of a brand-new fighter, also Ukraine and Russia have a large stock of Su-27 stored as reserve than you can request for overhaul and purchase. This must be followed with an comprehensive upgrade for the A-4AR as a complement for the new Flanker fleet. If countries like Ethiopia and Eritrea can buy Flankers, why Argentina cannot?

Greetings from Perú.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Ian_PD said:

The Atar 9K will have only support from SNECMA until 2020, perhaps a little more, but not far from 2025. It's only postpone the problem until that date. The Mirage 2000 is by far a better choice.


I'm sorry, but you can't measure the fighter's performance only by its combat reports, remember than any air combat is never equal to the next or previous, and every conflict have its unique circunstances, the aircraft performance can be affected by an arms embargo, lack of trained pilots. lack of spares, poor tactics and strategy, etc... In Malvinas by example, the Mirage IIIEA was unable to exploit its superior performance against the Sea Harrier because it lacks of an In-Flight Refuelling Probe to have the sufficient fuel to employ its full capabilities. And so on...

I don't think than obtain the Su-27/30 can be impossible for the FAA; as I mentioned before, exists a batch of second-hand Su-30s in KnAAPo than you can request at a fraction of a cost of a brand-new fighter, also Ukraine and Russia have a large stock of Su-27 stored as reserve than you can request for overhaul and purchase. This must be followed with an comprehensive upgrade for the A-4AR as a complement for the new Flanker fleet. If countries like Ethiopia and Eritrea can buy Flankers, why Argentina cannot?

Greetings from Perú.

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I would caution against any second hand purchases from the Russians or the Ukrainians, especially with aircraft. The Russians and the Ukrainians aren't known for good aircraft storage techniques. While Western nations tend to carefully store their aircraft in arid deserts, and properly prepped and maintained, the Russians and the Ukrainians tend to leave aircraft in the open with no storage maintenance and prepping. Usually after a couple of months, animals have made homes inside these aircraft, and after a few years, the aircraft is as good as scrap.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Pointblank said:

I would caution against any second hand purchases from the Russians or the Ukrainians, especially with aircraft. The Russians and the Ukrainians aren't known for good aircraft storage techniques. While Western nations tend to carefully store their aircraft in arid deserts, and properly prepped and maintained, the Russians and the Ukrainians tend to leave aircraft in the open with no storage maintenance and prepping. Usually after a couple of months, animals have made homes inside these aircraft, and after a few years, the aircraft is as good as scrap.

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I know that Peru purchased 18, or so, Mig-29’s from Belarus and had difficulty obtaining spare parts and maintenance assistance from Russia, since they did not sanction the deal.
Are the aircraft stored by Russia and Ukraine really just left in the open? They are not stored in hangers of some type of enclosure to protect them from the elements?
When Argentina purchased the American A-4M and converted them to A-4AR. They were aircraft stored in the deserts of the Southwest USA. The aircraft factory in Cordoba (Argentina) refurbished the aircraft at a final cost (purchase, refurbishment and new equipment) of around 8 million US$ each.
Do you thing that the MiG29’s the Russia has in storage could be refurbished for use or is it just flying garbage at this point, even with a complete overhaul. Is it just a waste of money?