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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The Atar 9K will have only support from SNECMA until 2020, perhaps a little more, but not far from 2025. It's only postpone the problem until that date. The Mirage 2000 is by far a better choice.

Agreed, the Mirage 2000 is a much better choice than the Mirage F-1. Although Argentina does have an ATAR 9k refurbishment facility in Cordoba, I just can’t stomach the through of the purchase of the F-1.
Although we may disagree, I still believe that the Mig-23 is superior to the Mirage F-1. Besides the Mirage F-1 is a lateral move from the Mirage III, not that much of an improvement. I would have preferred 18 Mirage 2000 than 13 Mirage F-1s and 12 Mirage 2000.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Agreed, the Mirage 2000 is a much better choice than the Mirage F-1. Although Argentina does have an ATAR 9k refurbishment facility in Cordoba, I just can’t stomach the through of the purchase of the F-1.
Although we may disagree, I still believe that the Mig-23 is superior to the Mirage F-1. Besides the Mirage F-1 is a lateral move from the Mirage III, not that much of an improvement. I would have preferred 18 Mirage 2000 than 13 Mirage F-1s and 12 Mirage 2000.

what about AAMs? MICA is really expensive.

Also, Taiwan ROCAF is due to retire its M2000 early.

Maintenance is really expensive and number quoted are
"roughly five times of F-16A/B and 3 times more than IDF."

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pretty bad drain on Argentina's limited resources if you ask me.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I know that Peru purchased 18, or so, Mig-29’s from Belarus and had difficulty obtaining spare parts and maintenance assistance from Russia, since they did not sanction the deal.
Are the aircraft stored by Russia and Ukraine really just left in the open? They are not stored in hangers of some type of enclosure to protect them from the elements?
When Argentina purchased the American A-4M and converted them to A-4AR. They were aircraft stored in the deserts of the Southwest USA. The aircraft factory in Cordoba (Argentina) refurbished the aircraft at a final cost (purchase, refurbishment and new equipment) of around 8 million US$ each.
Do you thing that the MiG29’s the Russia has in storage could be refurbished for use or is it just flying garbage at this point, even with a complete overhaul. Is it just a waste of money?

1. Yep. The Russians just leave perfectly functioning aircraft in grassy fields, and don't bother to look after them while in storage.
2. Nope. It would take a extensive (ie: expensive!) overhaul of the aircraft to get them flight-ready, probably more than the aircraft are worth.
 

Ian_PD

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I know that Peru purchased 18, or so, Mig-29’s from Belarus and had difficulty obtaining spare parts and maintenance assistance from Russia, since they did not sanction the deal.
Are the aircraft stored by Russia and Ukraine really just left in the open? They are not stored in hangers of some type of enclosure to protect them from the elements?
Sorry my friend, but you are completely wrong, the purchase of our MiG-29 and Su-25 fleet was not only knew and approved by the Russian Federation, but they also provided an MiG-29UB new from stock in replacement of one of the two MiG-29UB purchased to Belarus, because the latter didn't comply with the Peruvian requirements (which were quite high). The Peruvian Air Force choose the best units of both aircraft from Belarusian stocks, airframes with no less than the 90% of its calendar life (that's why we rejected the UB). The Belarusian deal also includes training, spares, armament (including BVR missiles, a novelty in South America) and support for the entire fleet (it was a bargain, really) but our operativity problems started because of political issues, not technical or logistical ones. The Alejandro Toledo goverment have the intention to prove than the Alberto Fujimori long-dictatorship was completely corrupt (not a big challenge, by the way), and they didn't have a better idea than cancel the fleet support from Belarus and let our fighters decay just to prove than Fujimori purchased junk. They almost did it, we lost a MiG-29 in an accident because the Minister of Defence ordered than a non-operational MiG-29 to fly, no matter what happen. The minister, David Waissman, was particulary interested in to prove this, because he was the intention to purchase Kfirs to replace the "Belarusian junk"... You can figure the rest.

This -fortunately- didn't prospered, the Peruvian Air Force managed to purchase three MiG-29SE from Russia to replace the losses (another one was lost in a training accident, not related with the another crash), and with them, we contract again the support of the entire fleet. Currently we are upgrading our MiGs with a custom-SMT program, and is expected than the first two MiG-29SMP would be presented in some weeks. I'll post some pictures of them here, I promise.

When Argentina purchased the American A-4M and converted them to A-4AR. They were aircraft stored in the deserts of the Southwest USA. The aircraft factory in Cordoba (Argentina) refurbished the aircraft at a final cost (purchase, refurbishment and new equipment) of around 8 million US$ each.
Do you thing that the MiG29’s the Russia has in storage could be refurbished for use or is it just flying garbage at this point, even with a complete overhaul. Is it just a waste of money?

As I say before, all depends of the FAA, you are the buyers, you put the requirements, and if I can say something about the Russian today, is than its procedures and customer management has improved a lot. Our MiG-29SMP program upgrade is a proof of that, they package is impressive (and cheap), I can't say so much here, but the EW suite is so new than even have a name, just a code... I also must say than the upgrade is focused in A2A combat, with some A2G capability. I think than you can request a similar package for the Su-30I stored in KnAAPo, which is in my opinion, your best choice.

Greetings from Perú.
 
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Ian_PD

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

1. Yep. The Russians just leave perfectly functioning aircraft in grassy fields, and don't bother to look after them while in storage.
If you are talking about their vast fleet of Su-7/17s, and other old aircraft, that's correct. They are leaved there just to become rust... But the Fulcrum and Flanker didn't suffer this kind of treatment (at least not their entire inventory), and specifically the Su-30 stored in the KnAAPo factory, they are in perfect condition.

2. Nope. It would take a extensive (ie: expensive!) overhaul of the aircraft to get them flight-ready, probably more than the aircraft are worth.

All depends of the FAA requirement. By example, the Hungarian MiG-29 fleet is for sale at a very low cost. This aircraft are quite well preserved, and requires only an SLEP (which is no so costly as you say) and an upgrade to be ready and capable again. The Moldavian units by example, are stored in conditions similar to that described by you, but the Moldavian MoD website indicates than this aircraft is carefully stored and preserved. They still awaits for a buyer:

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Here in Perú we have a long historial of operations with russian fighters (more than 30 years and two wars), and all than can I say is they are true frontliners, made to operate in conditions than would destroy a western fighter in a couple of days. The perfect fighter for a nation like us.

Greetings from Perú.
 
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i.e.

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

If you are talking about their vast fleet of Su-7/17s, and other old aircraft, that's correct. They are leaved there just to become rust... But the Fulcrum and Flanker didn't suffer this kind of treatment (at least not their entire inventory), and specifically the Su-30 stored in the KnAAPo factory, they are in perfect condition.

yep,

wouldn't be a bad idea to consider some 2nd hand Su-27SMs with Israeli radars and jammers.

who knows they might just give Typhoons a run for their money. and they can have a huge operating radius.
 

cirvine11

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I hope it does not happen, and do not believe the UK would back down...but with no carrier availability, if it is going to happen, it would probably take place some time before the new Queen Elizabeth comes on line.

If Argentina can summon the political will-it would have to happen before the two QE's come online. Also-Argentina needs new fighters and the ability to project them far out at sea. I would imagine China would be a great place to look. Also, they may want to taje a trip to Navantia shipyard and have a look at some of their affordable light CV designs. A force of say 6 AIP SSs and a CV as distant cover for the landing force. IF the Argies to try again-THEY MUST attack the main weakness of the British position-the 6,000 mile logistical train.
 

cirvine11

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

IMHO Argentina made a critical mistake by not attempting to meet the British farther out at sea BEFORE the landings. Even a tactical defeat could have turned into a major strategic victory if the Argentinians had been able to sink or damage the right ships during the battle. Maybe this time they will also not make dumb errors like not attaching detonators correctly... ect. It's all about commitment and competence.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

If you are talking about their vast fleet of Su-7/17s, and other old aircraft, that's correct. They are leaved there just to become rust... But the Fulcrum and Flanker didn't suffer this kind of treatment (at least not their entire inventory), and specifically the Su-30 stored in the KnAAPo factory, they are in perfect condition.



All depends of the FAA requirement. By example, the Hungarian MiG-29 fleet is for sale at a very low cost. This aircraft are quite well preserved, and requires only an SLEP (which is no so costly as you say) and an upgrade to be ready and capable again. The Moldavian units by example, are stored in conditions similar to that described by you, but the Moldavian MoD website indicates than this aircraft is carefully stored and preserved. They still awaits for a buyer:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Here in Perú we have a long historial of operations with russian fighters (more than 30 years and two wars), and all than can I say is they are true frontliners, made to operate in conditions than would destroy a western fighter in a couple of days. The perfect fighter for a nation like us.

Greetings from Perú.

1. I'm talking about newer birds. Aircraft like MiG-31's, An-124's, and MiG-29's. All left out in the open essentially to rot.

2. Aircraft placed into long term storage need extensive preparation required to place them into storage.

First off, the location matters. Aircraft placed into long term storage need to be placed in dry, arid, climates that will reduce the chance of corrosion. In order to get an aircraft that has been stored for quite some time airworthy a lot of panels are going to have to come off so the insides can be inspected. Not so much of a problem for a museum piece stored inside in a controlled environment. You can imagine the climate of the Russian steppes or Siberia is not conducive to proper storage.

Beyond corrosion worries, instruments are usually sealed and keep working although they all need to be checked and calibrated. Electrics usually keep working as are the electronics again everything needs to be checked though. Avionics and other very sensitive systems should be removed from the aircraft and placed in climate controlled storage if the storage time will exceed a year.

Engines need to be either run at specified calendar intervals, or be preserved, by having all fluids drained, and a protective heavy oil sprayed around the inside of the engine.

Also, all access points to aircraft being stored need to be taped over and sealed. Windows and tyres also need to be covered protect from UV rays. Not to mention that every now and then, you need to move the aircraft around.

Another major worry is with the hydraulics system; if it is not drained the fluid will become some kind of a soapy substance contaminating the whole system, necessitating total replacement of everything. If the system has been drained all seal's are toast and everything is stuck, requiring replacement of all of the seals, as when you re-fill the system leaks faster then can be filled.

Not to mention that the fuel system is another worry; if you drained every tank and purged them, eventually all of the tanks will be leaking and the fuel probes are toast. If not drained there is a good chance of fungus in the tanks, requiring the fuel system to be purged.

And when aircraft comes out of storage, they require extensive checks to bring them back into service. Depending on how long it was stored, it could be a simple system check to a total tear down and rebuild. The longer it was stored, the more expensive the check will be; often after a few years, the aircraft is actually worth more in scrap and spare parts than as an actual flying aircraft.

So yeah, placing aircraft into storage is a whole can of worms.

Also, FYI, the ex-Moldovian MiG-29's that were purchased by the US were in very poor condition when they arrived in the US. They'd basically been 'left out to rot' with no maintenance of preservation due to their government's financial status and priorities. Why do you think the bulk of them were scrapped shortly after arrival, while the few remaining are gate guards and museum pieces?
 

Ian_PD

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

1. I'm talking about newer birds. Aircraft like MiG-31's, An-124's, and MiG-29's. All left out in the open essentially to rot.
Sorry, but keep aircraft lined in open doesn't means than this are left essentially to become rust. Being more specific, not the entire MiG-31 fleet is scheduled to be upgraded and keep in service, also the MiG-29, an small batch is going to be upgraded an the rest is going to be withdraw from service and replaced with newer aircraft, like the MiG-35 (recently anounced in MAKS).

2. Aircraft placed into long term storage need extensive preparation required to place them into storage.
Did you ever saw a russian aircraft in open storage? I did, here we have our remaining Su-22 fleet in open storage and the airframes are in very good condition. I think than you are speaking about western fighters, specially the F-16, which need all the care than can you provide it even in service.

...
Also, FYI, the ex-Moldovian MiG-29's that were purchased by the US were in very poor condition when they arrived in the US. They'd basically been 'left out to rot' with no maintenance of preservation due to their government's financial status and priorities. Why do you think the bulk of them were scrapped shortly after arrival, while the few remaining are gate guards and museum pieces?
I'm sorry, but your information is completely outdated, I'm talking about the remaining Moldavian MiG-29s, left after the massive US acquisition and some small sales abroad (Eritrea was one client, if I remember well), and the remaining six MiG-29S were completely overhaul in Baranovichi (Belarus) between 1998-1999 and receive a ten-years calendar extension, but the were little used by the Moldavian Air Force, and after the calendar extension expired in 2008, this aircraft were carefully stored and mantained since then until today. They are an interesting option for the Peruvian Air Force, but we are seeking also other sources to increase our MiG-29 fleet.

Do not generalize, you are assuming than the russian are all negligent with their aircraft, and that's totally false. Also, an aircraft in open-storage were not always abandoned to the elements.

Greetings from Perú.
 
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