Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Ian_PD

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Most nations tend to shy away from Russian aircraft if they have a choice, or are offered a superb deal. The main reason is support; the Russians are pretty bad regarding providing technical support and spare parts for aircraft that they sell. This applies for both the commercial and military spheres.
This is false, as I state before, the Russians are quite good providers, most of the issues related with support are for political or financial reasons, not by the quality of their service.

The Germans had a heck of a time getting spare parts for their fleet of ex-East German MiG-29's, and the Indians struggled as well.
Strange, I have references about how much the Germans aprecciated their Fulcrums, and just accept to replace them with a superior fighter, the Typhoon, and no less than that. And that MiGs were downgraded to extend the MTBO of their engines, because the Soviet doctrine of maintenance. And even in that condition they managed ot defeat the proud F-16 in their very first encounter...

Not to mention from a pilot's perspective, Russian aircraft are more than a handful to fly, which increases pilot workload trying to fly the aircraft, and less time more critical aspects, such as fighting, and situational awareness.
Do you know any pilot of an Russian aircraft? I do, and not only of MiG-29, but Su-22 and Su.25 pilots, and they are not precisely stressed or disgusted about the cockpit ergonomics, and specifically about the MiG-29, they LOVE IT, love its superior performance and handling, is true than its learning curve is not precisely "flat", but that's why we have a good simulator (purchased to Germany, and currently being replaced by a new one) and training. In the Halcon Condor exercise in 2007, our Fulcrums give a good fight against the well trained and experienced USAF pilots in their F-16 Block 40 CCIP aircraft, with an 1:1 kill ratio in the 1 vs 1 encounters.

And speaking about ergonomics, did you know than 20 of 36 Sidewinders fired by F-16s in the Gulf War were accidental because its poor designed joystick?

There are many myths about Russian aircraft my friend, some are based on real events, others are only interpretations based on the first impressions about them at end of the Cold War. Its time to update your perceptions, I think; because "american = good" and "russian = bad" is quite outdated.

Greetings from Perú.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

This is false, as I state before, the Russians are quite good providers, most of the issues related with support are for political or financial reasons, not by the quality of their service.
No, you are not getting the point.

If I owned a Western aircraft, I can call up the manufacturer and can get a spare part to me overnight if I wanted to. I can also speak to a live technician, or have the manufacturer send technicians to come fix my airplane if the problem is big enough. Not to mention that quality control is way superior for Western aircraft. The Russians can't provide that level of service or quality.

Strange, I have references about how much the Germans aprecciated their Fulcrums, and just accept to replace them with a superior fighter, the Typhoon, and no less than that. And that MiGs were downgraded to extend the MTBO of their engines, because the Soviet doctrine of maintenance. And even in that condition they managed ot defeat the proud F-16 in their very first encounter...
1. They replaced their Fulcrums with F-4 Phantoms... not Eurofighters. Jagdgeschwader 73, which operated the MiG-29, switched to the F-4 Phantom for a while before transitioning to the Eurofighter.
2. They were derated because the engine had a ridiculously low engine life of 350-400 hours before the engine has to be removed from the aircraft because the engine was shot. Derating up the engine life to around 2000 hours before a major overhaul, but it removes the punch that the MiG 29 can provide during combat. The thing that the Germans operated in 2 modes; peacetime its the derated engine and combat its the non derated engine.
Compare that to the GE F110 engine; it only need a visit to the shop every 3,000 hours.
3. Derating of the engine occured in the late 1990's. The first adversarial exercises occurred in the early 1990's.


Do you know any pilot of an Russian aircraft? I do, and not only of MiG-29, but Su-22 and Su.25 pilots, and they are not precisely stressed or disgusted about the cockpit ergonomics, and specifically about the MiG-29, they LOVE IT, love its superior performance and handling, is true than its learning curve is not precisely "flat", but that's why we have a good simulator (purchased to Germany, and currently being replaced by a new one) and training. In the Halcon Condor exercise in 2007, our Fulcrums give a good fight against the well trained and experienced USAF pilots in their F-16 Block 40 CCIP aircraft, with an 1:1 kill ratio in the 1 vs 1 encounters.And speaking about ergonomics, did you know than 20 of 36 Sidewinders fired by F-16s in the Gulf War were accidental because its poor designed joystick?

There are many myths about Russian aircraft my friend, some are based on real events, others are only interpretations based on the first impressions about them at end of the Cold War. Its time to update your perceptions, I think; because "american = good" and "russian = bad" is quite outdated.

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I've got over 500 hours in the MiG-29 and 2000 hours in the F-16 (I also flew the F-15A/C and the F-5E). The following is an excerpt from a research papaer I wrote while working on a Master's Degree in aerospace engineering. Bottom line: F16 (and F-15) good, MiG-29 bad.

MiG-29 Fulcrum Versus F-16 Viper

The baseline MiG-29 for this comparison will be the MiG-29A (except for 200 kg more fuel and an internal jammer, the MiG-29C was not an improvement over the MiG-29A), as this was the most widely deployed version of the aircraft. The baseline F-16 will be the F-16C Block 40. Although there is a more advanced and powerful version of the F-16C, the Block 40 was produced and fielded during the height of Fulcrum production.

A combat loaded MiG-29A tips the scales at approximately 38, 500 pounds. This figure includes a full load of internal fuel, two AA-10A Alamo missiles, four AA-11 Archer missiles, 150 rounds of 30mm ammunition and a full centerline 1,500 liter external fuel tank. With 18,600 pounds of thrust per engine, this gives the Fulcrum a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.97:1. A similarly loaded air-to-air configured F-16 Block 40 would carry four AIM-120 AMRAAM active radar-guided missiles, two AIM-9M IR-guided missiles, 510 rounds of 20mm ammunition and a 300 gallon external centerline fuel tank. In this configuration, the F-16 weighs 31,640 pounds. With 29,000 pounds of thrust, the F-16 has a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.92:1. The reader should be cautioned that these thrust-to-weight ratios are based on uninstalled thrust. Once an engine is installed in the aircraft, it produces less thrust than it does on a test stand due to the air intake allowing in less air than the engine has available on the test stand.
The actual installed thrust-to-weight ratios vary based on the source. On average, they are in the 1:1 regime or better for both aircraft. The centerline fuel tanks can be jettisoned and probably would be if the situation dictated with an associated decrease in drag and weight and an increase in performance.

Speed

Both aircraft display good performance throughout their flight regimes in the comparison configuration. The MiG-29 enjoys a speed advantage at high altitude with a flight manual limit of Mach 2.3. The F-16’s high altitude limit is
Mach 2.05 but this is more of a limit of inlet design. The MiG-29 has variable geometry inlets to control the shock wave that forms in the inlet and prevent supersonic flow from reaching the engine. The F-16 employs a simple fixed-geometry inlet with a sharp upper lip that extends out beyond the lower portion of the inlet. A shock wave forms on this lip and prevents the flow in the intake from going supersonic. The objective is to keep the air going into the engine subsonic unlike a certain ‘subject matter expert’ on this website who thinks that the air should be accelerated to even higher speeds than the aircraft is traveling. Supersonic air in the compressor section? That’s bad.

Both aircraft have the same indicated airspeed limit at lower altitudes of
810 knots. This would require the centerline tanks to be jettisoned. The placard limits for the tanks are 600 knots or Mach 1.6 (Mach 1.5 for the MiG-29) whichever less is. It was the researcher’s experience that the MiG-29 would probably not reach this limit unless a dive was initiated. The F-16 Block 40 will easily reach 800 knots on the deck. In fact, power must be reduced to avoid exceeding placard limits. The limit is not thrust, as the F-16 has been test flown on the plus side of 900 knots. The limit for the F-16 is the canopy. Heating due to air friction at such speeds will cause the polycarbonate canopy to get soft and ultimately fail.

Turning Capability

The MiG-29 and F-16 are both considered 9 G aircraft. Until the centerline tank is empty, the Fulcrum is limited to four Gs and the Viper to seven Gs. The
MiG-29 is also limited to seven Gs above Mach 0.85 while the F-16, once the centerline tank is empty (or jettisoned) can go to nine Gs regardless of airspeed or Mach number. The MiG-29’s seven G limit is due to loads on the vertical stabilizers. MAPO has advertised that the Fulcrum could be stressed to 12 Gs and still not hurt the airframe. This statement is probably wishful and boastful. The German Luftwaffe, which flew its MiG-29s probably more aggressively than any other operator, experienced cracks in the structure at the base of the vertical tails. The F-16 can actually exceed nine Gs without overstressing the airframe. Depending on configuration, momentary overshoots to as much as 10.3 Gs will not cause any concern with aircraft maintainers.

Handling

Of the four fighters I have flown, the MiG-29 has by far the worst handling qualities. The hydro-mechanical flight control system uses an artificial feel system of springs and pulleys to simulate control force changes with varying airspeeds and altitudes. There is a stability augmentation system that makes the aircraft easier to fly but also makes the aircraft more sluggish to flight control inputs. It is my opinion that the jet is more responsive with the augmentation system disengaged. Unfortunately, this was allowed for demonstration purposes only as this also disengages the angle-of-attack (AoA) limiter. Stick forces are relatively light but the stick requires a lot of movement to get the desired response. This only adds to sluggish feeling of the aircraft. The entire time you are flying, the stick will move randomly about one-half inch on its own with a corresponding movement of the flight control surface. Flying the Fulcrum requires constant attention. If the pilot takes his hand off the throttles, the throttles probably won't stay in the position in which they were left. They'll probably slide back into the 'idle' position.

The Fulcrum is relatively easy to fly during most phases of flight such as takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. However, due to flight control limitations, the pilot must work hard to get the jet to respond the way he wants. This is especially evident in aggressive maneuvering, flying formation or during attempts to employ the gun. Aerial gunnery requires very precise handling in order to be successful. The MiG-29’s handling qualities in no way limit the ability of the pilot to perform his mission, but they do dramatically increase his workload. The F-16’s quadruple-redundant digital flight control system, on the other hand, is extremely responsive, precise and smooth throughout the flight regime.

There is no auto-trim system in the MiG-29 as in the F-16. Trimming the aircraft is practically an unattainable state of grace in the Fulcrum. The trim of the aircraft is very sensitive to changes in airspeed and power and requires constant attention. Changes to aircraft configuration such as raising and lowering the landing gear and flaps cause significant changes in pitch trim that the pilot must be prepared for. As a result, the MiG-29 requires constant attention to fly. The F-16 auto-trims to one G or for whatever G the pilot has manually trimmed the aircraft for.

The MiG-29 flight control system also has an AoA limiter that limits the allowable AoA to 26°. As the aircraft reaches the limit, pistons at the base of the stick push the stick forward and reduce the AoA about 5°. The pilot has to fight the flight controls to hold the jet at 26°. The limiter can be overridden, however, with about 17 kg more back pressure on the stick. While not entirely unsafe and at times tactically useful, care must be taken not to attempt to roll the aircraft with ailerons when above 26° AoA. In this case it is best to control roll with the rudders due to adverse yaw caused by the ailerons at high AoA. The F-16 is electronically limited to 26° AoA. While the pilot cannot manually override this limit it is possible to overshoot under certain conditions and risk departure from controlled flight. This is a disadvantage to the F-16 but is a safety margin due its lack of longitudinal stability. Both aircraft have a lift limit of approximately
35° AoA.

Combat Scenario

The ultimate comparison of two fighter aircraft comes down to a combat duel between them. After the Berlin Wall came down the reunified Germany inherited 24 MiG-29s from the Nationale Volksarmee of East Germany. The lessons of capitalism were not lost on MAPO-MiG (the Fulcrum’s manufacturer) who saw this as an opportunity to compare the Fulcrum directly with western types during NATO training exercises. MAPO was quick to boast how the MiG-29 had bested F-15s and F-16s in mock aerial combat. They claimed a combination of the MiG’s superior sensors, weapons and low radar cross section allowed the Fulcrum to beat western aircraft. However, much of the early exploitation was done more to ascertain the MiG-29’s capabilities versus attempting to determine what the outcome of actual combat would be. The western press was also quick to pick up on the theme. In 1991, Benjamin Lambeth cited an article in Jane’s Defence Weekly which stated that the German MiG-29s had beaten F-16s with simulated BVR range shots of more than 60 km. How was this possible when the MiG-29 cannot launch an AA-10A Alamo from outside about 25 km? Was this a case of the fish getting bigger with every telling of the story? The actual BVR capability of the MiG-29 was my biggest disappointment. Was it further exposure to the German Fulcrums in realistic training that showed the jet for what it truly is? It seems that MAPO’s free advertising backfired in the end as further orders were limited to the 18 airplanes sold to Malaysia.

If F-16Cs and MiG-29s face off in aerial combat, both would detect each other on the radar at comparable range. Armed with the AIM-120 AMRAAM, the F-16s would have the first shot opportunity at more than twice the range as the Fulcrums. A single F-16 would be able to discriminately target individual and multiple Fulcrums. The MiG-29’s radar will not allow this. If there is more than one F-16 in a formation, a Fulcrum pilot would not know exactly which F-16 the radar had locked and he can engage only one F-16 at a time. A Viper pilot can launch AMRAAMS against multiple MiG-29s on the first pass and support his missiles via data link until the missiles go active. He can break the radar lock and leave or continue to the visual arena and employ short range infrared guided missiles or the gun. The Fulcrum pilot must wait until about 13 nautical miles (24 kilometers) before he can shoot his BVR missile. The Alamo is a semi-active missile that must be supported by the launching aircraft until impact. This brings the Fulcrum pilot closer to the AMRAAM. In fact, just as the the Fulcrum pilot gets in range to fire an Alamo, the AMRAAM is seconds away from impacting his aircraft. The advantage goes to the F-16.

What if both pilots are committed to engage visually? The F-16 should have the initial advantage as he knows the Fulcrum’s exact altitude and has the target designator box in the head-up display (HUD) to aid in visual acquisition. The Fulcrum’s engines smoke heavily and are a good aid to gaining sight of the adversary. Another advantage is the F-16’s large bubble canopy with 360° field-of-view. The Fulcrum pilot’s HUD doesn’t help much in gaining sight of the F-16. The F-16 is small and has a smokeless engine. The MiG-29 pilot sets low in his cockpit and visibility between the 4 o’clock and 7 o’clock positions is virtually nonexistent.

Charts that compare actual maneuvering performance of the two aircraft are classified. It was the researcher’s experience that the aircraft have comparable initial turning performance. However, the MiG-29 suffers from a higher energy bleed rate than the F-16. This is due to high induced drag on the airframe during high-G maneuvering. F-16 pilots that have flown against the Fulcrum have made similar observations that the F-16 can sustain a high-G turn longer. This results in a turn rate advantage that translates into a positional advantage for the F-16.

The F-16 is also much easier to fly and is more responsive at slow speed.
The Fulcrum’s maximum roll rate is 160° per second. At slow speed this decreases to around 20° per second. Coupled with the large amount of stick movement required, the Fulcrum is extremely sluggish at slow speed. Maneuvering to defeat a close-range gun shot is extremely difficult if the airplane won’t move. For comparison, the F-16’s slow speed roll rate is a little more than 80° per second.

A lot has been written and theorized about the so-called “Cobra Maneuver” that impresses people at airshows. MAPO claimed that no western fighter dare do this same maneuver in public. They also claimed that the Cobra could be used to break the radar lock of an enemy fighter (due to the slow airspeed, there is no Doppler signal for the radar to track) or point the nose of the aircraft to employ weapons. Western fighter pilots were content to let the Russians brag and hope for the opportunity to see a MiG-29 give up all its airspeed. The fact that this maneuver is prohibited in the flight manual only validates the fact that this maneuver was a stunt. Lambeth was the first American to get a flight in the Fulcrum. Even his pilot conceded that the Cobra required a specially prepared aircraft and was prohibited in operational MiG-29 units

Another maneuver performed by the Fulcrum during its introduction to the West is the so-called “Tail Slide”. The nose of the jet is brought to 90° pitch and the airspeed is allowed to decay. Eventually, the Fulcrum begins to “slide” back, tail-first, until the nose drops and the jet begins to fly normally again. The Soviets boasted this maneuver demonstrated how robust the engines were as this would cause western engines to flameout. The first maneuver demonstrated to me during my F-15 training was the Tail Slide. The engines did not flameout.

The MiG-29 is not without strong points. The pilot can override the angle of attack limiter. This is especially useful in vertical maneuvering or in last ditch attempts to bring weapons to bear or defeat enemy shots. The HMS and AA-11 Archer make the Fulcrum a deadly foe in the visual arena. The AA-11 is far superior to the American AIM-9M. By merely turning his head, the MiG pilot can bring an Archer to bear. The one limitation, however, is that the Fulcrum pilot has no cue as to where the Archer seeker head is actually looking. This makes it impossible to determine if the missile is tracking the target, a flare, or some other hot spot in the background. (Note: the AIM-9X which is already fielded on the F-15C, and to be fielded on the F-16 in 2007, is far superior to the AA-11)

Fulcrum pilots have enjoyed their most success with the HMS/Archer combination in one versus one training missions. In this sterile environment, where both aircraft start within visual range of each other, the MiG-29 has a great advantage. Not because it is more maneuverable than the F-16. That is most certainly not the case regardless of the claims of the Fulcrum’s manufacturer and numerous other misinformed propaganda sources. The weapon/sensor integration with the HMS and Archer makes close-in missile employment extremely easy for the Fulcrum’s pilot. My only one versus one fight against a MiG-29 (in something other than another MiG-29) was flown in an F-16 Block 52. This was done against a German MiG-29 at Nellis AFB, Nevada. The F-16 outturned and out-powered the Fulcrum in every situation.

The Fulcrum’s gun system is fairly accurate as long as the target does not attempt to defeat the shot. If the target maneuvers, the gunsight requires large corrections to get back to solution. Coupled with the jet’s imprecise handling, this makes close-in maneuvering difficult. This is very important when using the gun. Although the Fulcrum has a 30 mm cannon, the muzzle velocity is no more than the 20 mm rounds coming out of the F-16’s gun. The MiG’s effective gun range is actually less than that of the F-16 as the 20 mm rounds are more aerodynamic and maintain their velocity longer.

If the fight lasts very long, the MiG pilot is at a decided disadvantage and must either kill his foe or find a timely opportunity to leave the fight without placing himself on the defensive. The Fulcrum A holds only 300 pounds more internal fuel than the F-16 and its two engines go through it quickly. There are no fuel flow gauges in the cockpit. Using the clock and the fuel gauge, in full afterburner the MiG-29 uses fuel 3.5 to 4 times faster than the Viper. My shortest MiG-29 sortie was 16 minutes from brake release to touchdown.

It should not be forgotten that fights between fighters do not occur in a vacuum. One-versus-one comparisons are one thing, but start to include other fighters into the fray and situational awareness (SA) plays an even bigger role. The lack of SA-building tools for MiG-29 pilots will become an even bigger factor if they have more aircraft to keep track of. Poor radar and HUD displays, poor cockpit ergonomics and poor handling qualities added to the Fulcrum pilot’s workload and degraded his overall SA. It was my experience during one-versus-one scenarios emphasizing dogfighting skills, the results came down to pilot skill.

In multi-ship scenarios, such as a typical four versus four training mission, the advantage clearly went to the side with the highest SA. Against F-15s and F-16s in multi-ship fights, the MiG-29s were always outclassed. It was nearly impossible to use the great potential of the HMS/Archer combination when all the Eagles and Vipers couldn’t be accounted for and the Fulcrums were on the defensive. The MiG-29’s design was a result of the Soviet view on tactical aviation and the level of technology available to their aircraft industry. The pilot was not meant to have a lot of SA. The center of fighter execution was the ground controller. The pilot’s job was to do as instructed and not to make independent decisions. Even the data link system in the MiG-29 was not meant to enhance the pilot’s SA. He was merely linked steering, altitude and heading cues to follow from the controller. If the MiG-29 pilot is cut off from his controller, his autonomous capabilities are extremely limited. Western fighter pilots are given the tools they need to make independent tactical decisions. The mission commander is a pilot on the scene. All other assets are there to assist and not to direct. If the F-16 pilot loses contact with support assets such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, he has all the tools to complete the mission autonomously.
 

Ian_PD

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

No, you are not getting the point.

If I owned a Western aircraft, I can call up the manufacturer and can get a spare part to me overnight if I wanted to. I can also speak to a live technician, or have the manufacturer send technicians to come fix my airplane if the problem is big enough. Not to mention that quality control is way superior for Western aircraft. The Russians can't provide that level of service or quality.
Again, how did you know that? Here in Peru we are upgrading our MiG-29 into a custom-version of the SMT, called MiG-29SMP, and RAC MiG provide us with anything we need to perform the upgrade, and not only today, but before we have a constant presence of Russian technicians and even trainers during more than 25 years of Su-22 operations here, includind two wars.

About the MiG-29SMP, the russians include in the package a jammer so new than even have a name, just a code...

1. They replaced their Fulcrums with F-4 Phantoms... not Eurofighters. Jagdgeschwader 73, which operated the MiG-29, switched to the F-4 Phantom for a while before transitioning to the Eurofighter.
The MiGs formed a mixed wing with the Phantoms in 1994, a year after its enter in service in the Luftwaffe in 1993, and the Phantom was retired from service in March 2000, with the introduction of the first six EF-2000s in April 30, 2000. The Typhoon is the "formal" replacement of the Phantom and MiG-29s, they even operate along with the Fulcrums for almost 4 years!, no matter what you say or believe. The Phantom was a complement, not a replacement for the MiG-29 in Germany.

2. They were derated because the engine had a ridiculously low engine life of 350-400 hours before the engine has to be removed from the aircraft because the engine was shot. Derating up the engine life to around 2000 hours before a major overhaul, but it removes the punch that the MiG 29 can provide during combat.
Is not "ridiculous", is a consequence of the Russian manteinance doctrine, is a different approach to the same problem, but obviously today every Russian aircraft have changed from the original fixed hour / calendar scheme to "on-condition" (like the Mirage 2000P, also in service in the Peruvian Air Force), our MiG-29 fleet is also receiving this modification on its maintenance procedures. I repeat, your information is quite outdated.

Compare that to the GE F110 engine; it only need a visit to the shop every 3,000 hours.
3. Derating of the engine occured in the late 1990's. The first adversarial exercises occurred in the early 1990's.
I have the original article "Schlemming with the Fulcrums", which clearly states than the German MiG-29 not only fought against the F-16s with their engines detuned, but also employing the standard NATO fuel (JP-8), which gives several times less-power than the russian mix (JP-4), adding also an extra "disadvantage", but even with this issues they managed to defeat the Americans. Obviously, the Fulcrum is not perfect, but many of its issues are currently solved with great success.

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Of course than I know that post, and is also outdated (badly), he speaks about the baseline export-version of the MiG-29 in German service, an aircraft detuned and undepowered but still capable to give a good fight... What do you think can happen if you change the JP-8 with JP-4 in a F-16? The MiG-29 is so resilient than can tolerate modifications like that without putting in risk the safety of the aircraft or pilot. I honestly chose the smoking, rude engine of our MiG-29 over the hidrazine of the emergency APU of the F-16s...

That MiG is not the MiG-29 of the Peruvian Air Force, the Luftwaffe operated the 9.12A variant, basic and with a lot of issues, we operate the 9.13/9.13SE variant, which includes the -by that time- advanced Gardeniya-1 internal jammer and extra fuel in its enlarged spine, which affects slightly its superb performance in air combat. I managed information quite fresh, not data from middle-90s...

Again, I suggest you than update your references about the Russian aircraft in general and about the MiG-29 in particular.

Greetings from Perú.
 
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Red Moon

Junior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

No, you are not getting the point.

If I owned a Western aircraft, I can call up the manufacturer and can get a spare part to me overnight if I wanted to. I can also speak to a live technician, or have the manufacturer send technicians to come fix my airplane if the problem is big enough. Not to mention that quality control is way superior for Western aircraft. The Russians can't provide that level of service or quality.
No. You don't get it. You DON'T own a "Western" aircraft. The Venezuelan government does, and for some reason, they cannot get ANY SERVICE AT ALL! I will assume the reason is obvious to you, as it should be to anyone on this forum.

The discussion here is between a Peruvian and an Argentine. If Peru, or Argentina, had a conflict with Chile, where would the US side? What would happen to this "overnight" service. Suppose, Ollanta Humala wins the next election in Peru (not at all unlikely). What happens to these on-site technicians? Is the Peruvian airforce supposed to wait a few years for spare parts until somebody else, more to the liking of Washington, wins an election? Suppose Argentina decides to provide fuel for Iran's medical reactor, as it once did. Can it still "call up the manufacturer"?

I apologize if I sound "angry", but I don't like sales-talk.

p.s.: I'm behind the times. Ollanta Humala already won!
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

No. You don't get it. You DON'T own a "Western" aircraft. The Venezuelan government does, and for some reason, they cannot get ANY SERVICE AT ALL! I will assume the reason is obvious to you, as it should be to anyone on this forum.

The discussion here is between a Peruvian and an Argentine. If Peru, or Argentina, had a conflict with Chile, where would the US side? What would happen to this "overnight" service. Suppose, Ollanta Humala wins the next election in Peru (not at all unlikely). What happens to these on-site technicians? Is the Peruvian airforce supposed to wait a few years for spare parts until somebody else, more to the liking of Washington, wins an election? Suppose Argentina decides to provide fuel for Iran's medical reactor, as it once did. Can it still "call up the manufacturer"?

I apologize if I sound "angry", but I don't like sales-talk.

The Venezuelan government has decided that it wants to make a enemy of the US, and thus, the US had pulled support for the Venezuelan F-16's. The Russians would do likewise if your nation made a enemy of the Russians.

Again, how did you know that? Here in Peru we are upgrading our MiG-29 into a custom-version of the SMT, called MiG-29SMP, and RAC MiG provide us with anything we need to perform the upgrade, and not only today, but before we have a constant presence of Russian technicians and even trainers during more than 25 years of Su-22 operations here, includind two wars.

Why do you think Russian fighters have lost practically every open or semi-open competition (the latest being the Indian MRCA competition)? Hint: the Russians have been really poor at support aspect of things. The Indians have had no end of trouble in terms of support from the Russians, including shoddy spare parts. Eventually, the Indians set up their own parallel spares production line as a result.

About the MiG-29SMP, the russians include in the package a jammer so new than even have a name, just a code...

The F-16 has had a jammer for even longer. The F-16 MLU's in service with our European allies have a jammer at the base of the vertical stabilizer. Israeli, Polish and the UAE F-16's have a jammer on the spine of the aircraft. Korean F-16's are equipped with the ALQ-165 mounted at at the base of the vertical stabilizer since 1996. Every F-16 available can carry the ALQ-131 or the ALQ-184 jammer.

The MiGs formed a mixed wing with the Phantoms in 1994, a year after its enter in service in the Luftwaffe in 1993, and the Phantom was retired from service in March 2000, with the introduction of the first six EF-2000s in April 30, 2000. The Typhoon is the "formal" replacement of the Phantom and MiG-29s, they even operate along with the Fulcrums for almost 4 years!, no matter what you say or believe. The Phantom was a complement, not a replacement for the MiG-29 in Germany.

The Germans didn't think that the MiG-29 was worth keeping over the older F-4's. They sold them off for a Euro each to the Polish.

Is not "ridiculous", is a consequence of the Russian manteinance doctrine, is a different approach to the same problem, but obviously today every Russian aircraft have changed from the original fixed hour / calendar scheme to "on-condition" (like the Mirage 2000P, also in service in the Peruvian Air Force), our MiG-29 fleet is also receiving this modification on its maintenance procedures. I repeat, your information is quite outdated.
350-400 hours life before an engine needs to be scrapped is ridiculous for a post 1960's era jet engine. The even older GE J79 designed in the 1950's had a longer engine life than the RD-33 engine. Not to mention the quality control issues that the Indians had with a batch of RD-33's engines, which only had 150 hours of engine life before the engine was consigned for scrap, and the very high number of in-flight incidents where a engine shut down or had a pre-mature engine failure, beyond the fact that the Indians found quality control deficiencies that resulted in numerous pieces of FOD and tools being left behind after final construction inside of the aircraft.

I have the original article "Schlemming with the Fulcrums", which clearly states than the German MiG-29 not only fought against the F-16s with their engines detuned, but also employing the standard NATO fuel (JP-8), which gives several times less-power than the russian mix (JP-4), adding also an extra "disadvantage", but even with this issues they managed to defeat the Americans. Obviously, the Fulcrum is not perfect, but many of its issues are currently solved with great success.

Yeah, if you fight one on one and the pilot does not take advantage of their platform...

In reality, the German Air Force MiG-29 experience against other NATO aircraft has been only allowed in deliberately controlled training situations, more to educate pilots then to assess superiority. The Luftwaffe was caught between intense political pressure by the Russians to validate the MiG-29 in a NATO environment, as well as the natural desire by the NATO pilots to "fight" the Fulcrum flown by better trained pilots.

Initially the newly assimilated East German MiG-29 Wing (JG.3 changed later to JG.73), at Preschen still manned by its original cadre, proved unsatisfactory according to NATO standards, in both airmanship and tactical know-how. Only after existing Luftwaffe F-4, Tornado, and F-15 exchange pilots re-built the squadron, did a more realistic use of the MiG-29 occur.

Their analysis of the aircraft concluded that it is very dependable, but the dependability was achieved at the expense of requiring short overhaul intervals. The frequent overhaul costs were high because they included failures and repairs, manpower, limited spares, and operating money. Therefore, the logistics support effort of the MiG-29's become significant for just 24 aircraft. They found that the engines need total overhauls at a ridiculously short time, and the airframe needed frequent depot-level inspections at around 900 hours.

Of course than I know that post, and is also outdated (badly), he speaks about the baseline export-version of the MiG-29 in German service, an aircraft detuned and undepowered but still capable to give a good fight... What do you think can happen if you change the JP-8 with JP-4 in a F-16? The MiG-29 is so resilient than can tolerate modifications like that without putting in risk the safety of the aircraft or pilot. I honestly chose the smoking, rude engine of our MiG-29 over the hidrazine of the emergency APU of the F-16s...

That MiG is not the MiG-29 of the Peruvian Air Force, the Luftwaffe operated the 9.12A variant, basic and with a lot of issues, we operate the 9.13/9.13SE variant, which includes the -by that time- advanced Gardeniya-1 internal jammer and extra fuel in its enlarged spine, which affects slightly its superb performance in air combat. I managed information quite fresh, not data from middle-90s...

Again, I suggest you than update your references about the Russian aircraft in general and about the MiG-29 in particular.

Greetings from Perú.
An F-16 will wax the MiG-29 well before it has a chance to engage in a dogfight. Remember the F-16 has a longer range weapon in the AIM-120 that does not need the fighter to continuously illuminate the enemy aircraft. A F-16 can fire off 4 AIM-120's well outside the engagement envelope of a MiG-29 at 4 separate targets and by the the time a MiG-29 has a chance to shoot, it is already game over.

It is interesting to note that the only combat kill of a MiG-29 of another fighter happens to be a fratricide of a MiG-23 during Gulf War I... other than that, the MiG-29 has been on the loosing end of fights with F-16's, F-15's, and even Su-27's.
 

Ian_PD

New Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

...
Why do you think Russian fighters have lost practically every open or semi-open competition (the latest being the Indian MRCA competition)? Hint: the Russians have been really poor at support aspect of things. The Indians have had no end of trouble in terms of support from the Russians, including shoddy spare parts. Eventually, the Indians set up their own parallel spares production line as a result.
C'mon... Again your "logic" is at least, questionable. If you are correct, therefore the Dassault Rafale, one of the most advanced multirole fighter in the world is a complete failure because it lost every contest as far as today... You really have an issue against the Russian aircraft, fueled with tons of myths and rumours but with little truth behind. By example, you think than the IAF installed a engine production line because the Russian can provide it in the quality and quantity the need, when in fact the IAF need to have a complete capacity to sustain its main interceptor during a war, when all the providers close their doors and open their "windows" offering spares and support 4 or 5 times high than its original cost during peacetime. And they also desire the technology transference implied in the instalation of such capabilities.

The F-16 has had a jammer for even longer. The F-16 MLU's in service with our European allies have a jammer at the base of the vertical stabilizer. Israeli, Polish and the UAE F-16's have a jammer on the spine of the aircraft. Korean F-16's are equipped with the ALQ-165 mounted at at the base of the vertical stabilizer since 1996. Every F-16 available can carry the ALQ-131 or the ALQ-184 jammer.
So? That's irrelevant, the MLU upgrade starts in Europe several years after the 9.13/9.13S variant enter in service with its internal jammer installed. Currently exists as an option for the MiG-29 several jammers not only as advanced as the AIDEWS installed in the Polish Falcons, but even superior, like the ELT-568... The Indian MiG-29UPG will have a very advanced EW suite to face the AIDEWS installed in the Pakistani F-16s, and finally, the jamming is not an issue for the MiG-29 because it doesn't depends from the radar for target search and designation, the IRST also give that functions in case of combat in a jamming-rich scenary.

The Germans didn't think that the MiG-29 was worth keeping over the older F-4's. They sold them off for a Euro each to the Polish.
So? They get them for free, with the unifiication, do you remember? An I repeat, the JG73 was a mixed-wing made with the former GDR MiGs and F-4s, the Phantom was always considered as a "gap-filler", cheap and reliable but with several drawbacks, because the Eurofighter Typhoon delays, the F-4s were keeped because they need to keep four complete fighter squadrons at the same time. The MiGs were an exceptional acquisition for the Luftwaffe, completely out of its standards, an they are the obvious choice for being first replaced with the newer Typhoons, not becaue they were inferior to the F-4s.

350-400 hours life before an engine needs to be scrapped is ridiculous for a post 1960's era jet engine.
Scrapped? No no sir, the engine needs a complete overhaul after that, not dropped. This is another example of misinformation, sir, I don't know from where you obtain such information.

Yeah, if you fight one on one and the pilot does not take advantage of their platform...
This is an excuse sir.

In reality, the German Air Force MiG-29 experience against other NATO aircraft has been only allowed in deliberately controlled training situations, more to educate pilots then to assess superiority.
This is also another excuse sir. Is a myth tha the DATC exercises are not as real than it can be.

The Luftwaffe was caught between intense political pressure by the Russians to validate the MiG-29 in a NATO environment, as well as the natural desire by the NATO pilots to "fight" the Fulcrum flown by better trained pilots.
Do you have any proof of this? Because this is a big lie sir.

Their analysis of the aircraft concluded that it is very dependable, but the dependability was achieved at the expense of requiring short overhaul intervals.
This is correct for the MiG-29A variant in service in the Luftwaffe at that time.

The frequent overhaul costs were high because they included failures and repairs, manpower, limited spares, and operating money.
This was because the MiG-29 was an alien aircraft for the Luftwaffe, completely different than any other fighter than they operate before.

An F-16 will wax the MiG-29 well before it has a chance to engage in a dogfight. Remember the F-16 has a longer range weapon in the AIM-120 that does not need the fighter to continuously illuminate the enemy aircraft. A F-16 can fire off 4 AIM-120's well outside the engagement envelope of a MiG-29 at 4 separate targets and by the the time a MiG-29 has a chance to shoot, it is already game over.
Did you know than was never a single BVR shotdown made far than 30 kms until today? All that you say is THEORY, the FACTS tell a different history.

It is interesting to note that the only combat kill of a MiG-29 of another fighter happens to be a fratricide of a MiG-23 during Gulf War I... other than that, the MiG-29 has been on the loosing end of fights with F-16's, F-15's, and even Su-27's.
This is another poor excuse, a bunch of poor mantained, ill armed and basic MIG-29s can't be a match against the entire OTAN. But in Kargil, the F-16 have the opportunity to show its superiority against not only the MiG-29, but also the Mirage 2000 in equal conditions. But they never show its noses in combat. The Indians knew that. Also us.

I repeat, the old myth of "russian aircraft = bad and american aircraft = good" is an outdated an unsustainable fallacy today.

Greetings from Perú
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

C'mon... Again your "logic" is at least, questionable. If you are correct, therefore the Dassault Rafale, one of the most advanced multirole fighter in the world is a complete failure because it lost every contest as far as today... You really have an issue against the Russian aircraft, fueled with tons of myths and rumours but with little truth behind. By example, you think than the IAF installed a engine production line because the Russian can provide it in the quality and quantity the need, when in fact the IAF need to have a complete capacity to sustain its main interceptor during a war, when all the providers close their doors and open their "windows" offering spares and support 4 or 5 times high than its original cost during peacetime. And they also desire the technology transference implied in the instalation of such capabilities.

The Russians have not won a free and open competition since the 1990's for both military and commercial aircraft, nor have they been selected as being on a shortlist (the Rafale has on a number of occasions, such as Brazil's F-X2 competition, and the Indian MRCA competition).

The Indians setup a parallel spares production line partly in response to the poor quality of work by the Russians. And it is not just the Indians; the Algerians took the unprecedented step of RETURNING 15 MiG-29SMT's over quality control issues and rejected delivery of the rest, something that has NEVER happened before in aircraft purchases for well over 30 years. The Venezuelan's have complained that their Su-30's were from a rejected batch of Su-30MKK's that the Chinese rejected. The Malaysians are prematurely retiring their MiG-29 fleet over issues regarding the sourcing of spare parts.

Usually, countries whose armed forces have suffered such problems with Russian equipment, as the Indian air force did with its Su-30MKI's, have complained and just put up with the problems or agreed to renegotiate the contracts under which they were supplied. They have not wanted to tear up their deals completely for fear of provoking Russia's anger, because of the extremely favorable credit terms under which Russia often offered such deals or because, like Venezuela and India, their governments were close strategic allies of Russia. The Algerians on the other hand were so furious, they went ahead and returned their MiGs anyway.

So? That's irrelevant, the MLU upgrade starts in Europe several years after the 9.13/9.13S variant enter in service with its internal jammer installed. Currently exists as an option for the MiG-29 several jammers not only as advanced as the AIDEWS installed in the Polish Falcons, but even superior, like the ELT-568... The Indian MiG-29UPG will have a very advanced EW suite to face the AIDEWS installed in the Pakistani F-16s, and finally, the jamming is not an issue for the MiG-29 because it doesn't depends from the radar for target search and designation, the IRST also give that functions in case of combat in a jamming-rich scenary.
So what? The F-16 had a jammer for even longer. The ALQ-131 pod was available since the 1970's.

And the Pakistani F-16's did not have BVR capabilities; they were only armed with the AIM-9, as the versions Pakistan purchased did not have AIM-7 or AIM-120 capability.

And the MiG-29 does not very good situational awareness due to the avionics package. Just to get a simple lock on and fire a missile may take a half dozen hands-off switches or so. A F-16 pilot can do the same with a flick of the thumb while looking looking at the HUD. F-16 pilots also have a significant sight advantage. A couple of hundred feet advantage can make a difference in air-to-air combat; the actual difference is more significant than that.

Furthermore, the avionics system on the MiG-29 is not highly automated; for example, the most important tool on the MiG-29's is the clock. But a large clock is needed to keep track of the time after launching a missile. When they launch a missile, they have to consider their shot range and the type of missile they are shooting and estimate how long it will take to impact before firing. When they take a five-mile Alamo shot, for example, they have to calculate mentally the time required for the missile to reach its target so their radar can illuminate it for the duration. They fire and watch until they know when they can turn away. That procedure is a real disadvantage if they're flying against someone who shot a missile at them at about the same time. F-16's pilots don't have to worry; they can launch a missile and the airplane performs all the calculations and displays a countdown on the head-up display for them.

So? They get them for free, with the unifiication, do you remember? An I repeat, the JG73 was a mixed-wing made with the former GDR MiGs and F-4s, the Phantom was always considered as a "gap-filler", cheap and reliable but with several drawbacks, because the Eurofighter Typhoon delays, the F-4s were keeped because they need to keep four complete fighter squadrons at the same time. The MiGs were an exceptional acquisition for the Luftwaffe, completely out of its standards, an they are the obvious choice for being first replaced with the newer Typhoons, not becaue they were inferior to the F-4s.
It was a political decision to keep the MiG-29's due to pressure from the Russians. The Russians applied tremendous pressure on the Germans to keep their MiG-29's because the Russian military and aerospace industry tried to find any data that would support their claims of parallel or better suitability of the MiG-29 to NATO aircraft. In fact, what they are trying to do, was to take western experience with the MiG-29 and leverage it in the export marketplace. Fortunately, but not surprisingly, their efforts have been met with failure.

Scrapped? No no sir, the engine needs a complete overhaul after that, not dropped. This is another example of misinformation, sir, I don't know from where you obtain such information.
I'll tell you this; on the F-14B and D models with the GE F110 engines, there were plenty of aircraft still running with engines originally built in the mid 1980's well up to the date of retirement. Russian engines have been designed for high performance and short life spans. Since they were designed for real war conditions and not the convenience of peacetime, they had relatively short Mean Time Between Overhauls of a few hundred hours. Compare that to a comparable Western engine that have MTBO's into the thousands of hours.

And note that despite the parallel production line and overhaul centre, the Indians to date have only been able to maintain their engines at a 200 hour MTBO rate.

This is an excuse sir.
No, pilot skill is a major factor in aerial combat. Often, what often tips the balance in aerial combat between fighter pilots flying equivalent aircraft is pilot skill.

This is also another excuse sir. Is a myth tha the DATC exercises are not as real than it can be.
DATC is not very realistic as it is meant to more educate pilots on various aspects of aerial combat rather than being realistic training. For example, F-22's regularly exercise against T-38 advanced trainers, teaching F-22 pilots how to fight in close quarters (and often newer, less experienced F-22 pilots get spanked by the instructors flying T-38's). It helps pilots get a better sense of what their aircraft can and can't do, and how to better utilize their aircraft in combat situations.

Do you have any proof of this? Because this is a big lie sir.
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This is correct for the MiG-29A variant in service in the Luftwaffe at that time.

Which were at the time, some of the more advanced MiG-29's outside of Russia. The Germans much preferred their Western aircraft, which were more easily maintainable as the design of Western aircraft allows for quick and easy replacement of parts on the aircraft. For example, to replace an accessory on a Western engine just requires the removal of a panel on an aircraft, and some tools to remove and install the accessory. On a Russian engine, the engine has to be removed from the aircraft itself and sent back to the factory.

This was because the MiG-29 was an alien aircraft for the Luftwaffe, completely different than any other fighter than they operate before.
The Germans had tons of technical assistance from the Russians and still had poor serviceability rates. Ditto the Indians, Malaysians, and many other customers.

Did you know than was never a single BVR shotdown made far than 30 kms until today? All that you say is THEORY, the FACTS tell a different history.
BVR shootdowns will be more common in the future as technology has gotten better.

This is another poor excuse, a bunch of poor mantained, ill armed and basic MIG-29s can't be a match against the entire OTAN. But in Kargil, the F-16 have the opportunity to show its superiority against not only the MiG-29, but also the Mirage 2000 in equal conditions. But they never show its noses in combat. The Indians knew that. Also us.

I repeat, the old myth of "russian aircraft = bad and american aircraft = good" is an outdated an unsustainable fallacy today.

Greetings from Perú
The combat record of the MiG-29 is not very good in practically every war they have been involved in. The Su-27 has a better combat record in comparison.

And see my earlier note regarding Pakistan's F-16's: the Pakistani F-16's at the time did not have BVR capability, the Indians did. That is a major factor in aerial combat.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

No. You don't get it. You DON'T own a "Western" aircraft. The Venezuelan government does, and for some reason, they cannot get ANY SERVICE AT ALL! I will assume the reason is obvious to you, as it should be to anyone on this forum.

The discussion here is between a Peruvian and an Argentine. If Peru, or Argentina, had a conflict with Chile, where would the US side? What would happen to this "overnight" service. Suppose, Ollanta Humala wins the next election in Peru (not at all unlikely). What happens to these on-site technicians? Is the Peruvian airforce supposed to wait a few years for spare parts until somebody else, more to the liking of Washington, wins an election? Suppose Argentina decides to provide fuel for Iran's medical reactor, as it once did. Can it still "call up the manufacturer"

This is very true. After the Malvinas War the FAA could not get parts for the remaining A-4Bs and A-4Cs. If it wasn’t for the help of Israelis these aircraft would have been non-operational. The Israelis also sold the FAA 19 Mirage IIICJ and the remaining Neshers. Peru also gave 10 Mirage V.
I was impossible to purchase any parts from the USA, only via third parties or black market.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I’ve been very disappointed in the purchase of the ex Jordanian Mirage F-1s and the “future” purchase of the 12 Mirage 2000-5 from France, by the FAA. I can under stand why the purchase was many (commonality of parts with the ATAR engine on the F-1 and a familiarity with the Mirage 2000 and Desault systems). However this leave Argentina at a tactical and strategic disadvantage. With all that said I feel that other aircraft (new or used) where available. Many of which had the capacity to by upgraded and provide a 15 to 20 year life.
Any of you like to provide your armchair Air Marshal opinion on this topic? Assuming that you had a 2 billion $us purchasing budget and that maintenance budget would not be an issue.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Explain this:
A17L-DSC_0191_edited.jpg

That's a top of the line Tu-160 Blackjack! It probably won't ever fly again, at this stage of deterioration.

A19L-DSC_0188_edited.jpg

How about some Su-27's as well?
A20R-DSC_0074_edited.jpg


Compared to storage like this F-16C:
1359443.jpg


Or how about these F/A-18A's?
1881796.jpg



Or these F-4 Phantoms?
1828865.jpg


How about something bigger: a KC-135E?
1822629.jpg

Now tell me, which will require more work, reactivating those Russian fighters, or the US fighters? I bet the good folks at Davis-Monthan AFB can pull those F-4's out and have them flight ready in a few weeks, even though they have been sitting in storage for almost 2 decades. It will take a lot longer for those Russian aircraft to be pulled out of long term storage.

That's a valid point you made there. But what if (if I were a weapons buying customer) I buy just the frame of the SU-27 and have the Chinese outfitted with the avionics and engines of their own? Yes it probably will cost me more than saying buying the whole jet of an F-16C and F/A-18 that was in "storage". What do you think?
 
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