Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Equation said:

That's a valid point you made there. But what if (if I were a weapons buying customer) I buy just the frame of the SU-27 and have the Chinese outfitted with the avionics and engines of their own? Yes it probably will cost me more than saying buying the whole jet of an F-16C and F/A-18 that was in "storage". What do you think?

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The frame would be heavily deteriorated from corrosion. To fix the corrosion problems and replace the systems inside would probably cost more than just buying a new aircraft anyways. And even then, there is no guarantee that the repair work will result in problem free aircraft... that's why it is so very important for today's weapons systems to be properly stored.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Pointblank said:

The frame would be heavily deteriorated from corrosion. To fix the corrosion problems and replace the systems inside would probably cost more than just buying a new aircraft anyways. And even then, there is no guarantee that the repair work will result in problem free aircraft... that's why it is so very important for today's weapons systems to be properly stored.

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It’s interesting to note that the prospect of purchasing the Russian aircraft (in poor storage) is tempting. However you would have to acquire two or possible three of these aircraft to get a one that functions as specifications require. An example of well maintained aircraft are the Mirage III and Neshers in FAA service. These aircraft should have been decommissioned long ago. But they are still airworthy due to proper maintenance.
What is your opinion of the L-15 (or Jl-15) trainer currently in production for the PLAAF? Its approximate weight (empty and loaded) is similar to that of the Mig-21. Do you believe that a single seat version of this aircraft would be a good point defense fighter / support fight for a J-10 or a JF-17? Assuming of course that a decent radar and electric package is installed.
The Ivchenko AI-222K-25F afterburning turbofans can achieve a 4000kg trust each. Which is enough to obtain a mach 1.4 to 1.6 speed. Any thoughts?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Pointblank said:

The frame would be heavily deteriorated from corrosion. To fix the corrosion problems and replace the systems inside would probably cost more than just buying a new aircraft anyways. And even then, there is no guarantee that the repair work will result in problem free aircraft... that's why it is so very important for today's weapons systems to be properly stored.

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That's good point there, but I thought Russian fighters are made of titanium alloy metal that is light and very strong therefore be able to resist certain corrosion?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Equation said:

That's good point there, but I thought Russian fighters are made of titanium alloy metal that is light and very strong therefore be able to resist certain corrosion?

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Certain structural components are titanium, but the rest can be made from aluminum, composites, and steel. On the Su-27, the airframe is primarily aluminum alloy with titanium components. Aluminum alloy does not like excessive long term moisture.

Miragedriver said:

It’s interesting to note that the prospect of purchasing the Russian aircraft (in poor storage) is tempting. However you would have to acquire two or possible three of these aircraft to get a one that functions as specifications require. An example of well maintained aircraft are the Mirage III and Neshers in FAA service. These aircraft should have been decommissioned long ago. But they are still airworthy due to proper maintenance.
What is your opinion of the L-15 (or Jl-15) trainer currently in production for the PLAAF? Its approximate weight (empty and loaded) is similar to that of the Mig-21. Do you believe that a single seat version of this aircraft would be a good point defense fighter / support fight for a J-10 or a JF-17? Assuming of course that a decent radar and electric package is installed.
The Ivchenko AI-222K-25F afterburning turbofans can achieve a 4000kg trust each. Which is enough to obtain a mach 1.4 to 1.6 speed. Any thoughts?

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The Argentinians have recently upgraded A-4's in service that can serve as advanced trainers.

It will probably be more economical to pull used F-16's from USAF storage or from another user. Chile purchased 20 recently refurbished Dutch F-16 MLU's for $150 million. With the MLU upgrade, these F-16's are pretty close to the F-16 Block 50. Ex-Israeli F-16's are also an option as well. The market for fighters of this class is very competitive with lots of good condition used F-16's coming onto the market. Swedish JAS-39 Gripen's are an option as well, as a number of countries have leased Gripens at very economical rates.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Equation said:

That's good point there, but I thought Russian fighters are made of titanium alloy metal that is light and very strong therefore be able to resist certain corrosion?

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The Russians use more titanium because their ability to process it is better. They use Ti where another, and they themselves earlier, would have used stainless steel, for heavily loaded parts.. However aluminum is the metal most used and that is replaced where possible by fiber reinforced plastic to save weight.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Pointblank said:

It will probably be more economical to pull used F-16's from USAF storage or from another user. Chile purchased 20 recently refurbished Dutch F-16 MLU's for $150 million. With the MLU upgrade, these F-16's are pretty close to the F-16 Block 50. Ex-Israeli F-16's are also an option as well. The market for fighters of this class is very competitive with lots of good condition used F-16's coming onto the market. Swedish JAS-39 Gripen's are an option as well, as a number of countries have leased Gripens at very economical rates.

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The used F-16 should have been to way to go about six years ago. However, the current administration (in Argentina) is hell bent on destroying the military and rejected the offer of F-16s from America using the excuse that the under belly intake could ingest debris from the runway.
They are also trying to move away from American equipment and go back to plan “Europa” and purchase the equipment from European countries.
Unfortunately this places Argentina in a bad position. Namely that they need to acquire a combat aircraft that can counter the F-16 and still not break the bank. The MiG-29 (similar to the one upgraded by the Germans and now used by Poland) would be a nice addition, or the JF-17 with an IRST system. Of course I would prefer the J-10, or some Su-27s with Israeli avionics.
Unfortunately for the JAS-39 is that it has a lot of English components and avionics and they would not permit the sale.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

The used F-16 should have been to way to go about six years ago. However, the current administration (in Argentina) is hell bent on destroying the military and rejected the offer of F-16s from America using the excuse that the under belly intake could ingest debris from the runway.
They are also trying to move away from American equipment and go back to plan “Europa” and purchase the equipment from European countries.
Unfortunately this places Argentina in a bad position. Namely that they need to acquire a combat aircraft that can counter the F-16 and still not break the bank. The MiG-29 (similar to the one upgraded by the Germans and now used by Poland) would be a nice addition, or the JF-17 with an IRST system. Of course I would prefer the J-10, or some Su-27s with Israeli avionics.
Unfortunately for the JAS-39 is that it has a lot of English components and avionics and they would not permit the sale.

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It's either F-16's then or used Mirage 2000's, either ex-French Air Force or maybe even the UAE Mirage 2000-9's that the UAE want to replace.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Pointblank said:

It's either F-16's then or used Mirage 2000's, either ex-French Air Force or maybe even the UAE Mirage 2000-9's that the UAE want to replace.

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I guess it’s going to be the Mirage 2000. Question, you don’t believe that a J-10 or Mig-29 with IRST, good avionics and missiles can go toe to toe with an F-16. Provided that the AWAC and ECM support is equal?

But as always the Argentine government will do with the cheep solution, which in most cases is not the best option.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

This is for all of you that want to see vintage (Museum piece) Mirage IIIs in flight.
It’s a long video (around 7 minutes) but it has some good shots.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

I guess it’s going to be the Mirage 2000. Question, you don’t believe that a J-10 or Mig-29 with IRST, good avionics and missiles can go toe to toe with an F-16. Provided that the AWAC and ECM support is equal?

But as always the Argentine government will do with the cheep solution, which in most cases is not the best option.

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We have yet to see how support for J-10's will work out with the distances involved, as the Chinese have no reputation (positive or negative) on service and supplying spares. MiG-29's have a very poor combat record in practically every war they have fought, either against Western forces, or otherwise (Eritrean-Ethiopian War comes to mind) of equivalent capabilities.

With the UAE looking to dispose of around 60 Mirage 2000-9's, and the French really interested in getting the UAE to buy Rafales, the French could swing a deal with the UAE to take back the Mirage 2000's, and sell them to Argentina, while selling the UAE Rafales.