Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Lion

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

We have yet to see how support for J-10's will work out with the distances involved, as the Chinese have no reputation (positive or negative) on service and supplying spares. MiG-29's have a very poor combat record in practically every war they have fought, either against Western forces, or otherwise (Eritrean-Ethiopian War comes to mind) of equivalent capabilities.

With the UAE looking to dispose of around 60 Mirage 2000-9's, and the French really interested in getting the UAE to buy Rafales, the French could swing a deal with the UAE to take back the Mirage 2000's, and sell them to Argentina, while selling the UAE Rafales.

Its not like China is selling fighter jet for the first time... J-7(PAF, Zimbawe AF, Myanmar AF,Nigeria AF) , Q-5(PAF, Sudan AF) and K-8(Many, many) trainer??? What do you mean no reputation of good or bad? If you don't know or don't bother to goggle. Don't sprout rubbish. So far, there is no major complain regarding poor service or lack of support from Chinese side with regards to fighter jet sales.

As for Mirage 2000, western jet are know to be very costly to maintain. Look at how much IAF paid to get upgraded Mirage 2000.

They may look cheap to acquire but the maintenace cost in future may make this plane hanger queen.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I guess it’s going to be the Mirage 2000. Question, you don’t believe that a J-10 or Mig-29 with IRST, good avionics and missiles can go toe to toe with an F-16. Provided that the AWAC and ECM support is equal?

But as always the Argentine government will do with the cheep solution, which in most cases is not the best option.

Seriously French stuff is not the best option for Argentina consider the close tie between GB and France.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Its not like China is selling fighter jet for the first time... J-7(PAF, Zimbawe AF, Myanmar AF,Nigeria AF) , Q-5(PAF, Sudan AF) and K-8(Many, many) trainer??? What do you mean no reputation of good or bad? If you don't know or don't bother to goggle. Don't sprout rubbish. So far, there is no major complain regarding poor service or lack of support from Chinese side with regards to fighter jet sales.

As for Mirage 2000, western jet are know to be very costly to maintain. Look at how much IAF paid to get upgraded Mirage 2000.

They may look cheap to acquire but the maintenace cost in future may make this plane hanger queen.

Chinese after support for a number of aviation products is pretty poor. For example, the MA-60 has pretty poor vendor after-sale support, leading to a number of airlines to stop using the type altogether or cancel orders. Other have cannibalized aircraft to keep others in the air. If this is representative of Chinese after-market sales support, it does not bode well for future sales.

And for the types you mentioned, they are very low technology aircraft, that are easily supported through other vendors. When you are talking about more modern, more sophisticated systems, then aftermarket support becomes absolutely critical. Western vendors have a better track record in providing the aftermarket support.

As for Mirage 2000, western jet are know to be very costly to maintain. Look at how much IAF paid to get upgraded Mirage 2000.

They may look cheap to acquire but the maintenace cost in future may make this plane hanger queen.

Western fighters have better combat records, not to mention the overall preference of the market for Western types. If a country has the option to purchase Western fighters, they often will, unless the Chinese or Russians offer contractual terms and loans that are too good to pass up.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Chinese after support for a number of aviation products is pretty poor. For example, the MA-60 has pretty poor vendor after-sale support, leading to a number of airlines to stop using the type altogether or cancel orders. Other have cannibalized aircraft to keep others in the air. If this is representative of Chinese after-market sales support, it does not bode well for future sales.
Do you have a link for this information? "A number of airlines"? How many, which ones?
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Do you have a link for this information? "A number of airlines"? How many, which ones?
Air Zimbabwe, Merpati, Okay Air, Wuhan Airlines, Sichuan Airlines, to name a few have experienced issues with the MA60 or have discontinued using the type...

Air Zimbabwe is named as being the one who cannibalized one aircraft to keep 2 others airborne due to continued technical difficulties.
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Quickie

Colonel
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Air Zimbabwe, Merpati, Okay Air, Wuhan Airlines, Sichuan Airlines, to name a few have experienced issues with the MA60 or have discontinued using the type...

Air Zimbabwe is named as being the one who cannibalized one aircraft to keep 2 others airborne due to continued technical difficulties.
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Did you actually read the news?

The national airline is battling to secure spare parts from the Chinese manufacturer after the Zimbabwean authorities bungled the initial deal after they signed a purchase contract without a spares back-up service.
The MA60 plies domestic and regional routes which include Harare, Bulaway , Victoria Falls, Lubumbashi and Johannesburg.
Air Zimbabwe has in recent months failed to service some routes or delayed passengers because planes could not fly due to a lack of spares or fuel, blamed on an acute shortage of foreign currency to pay foreign suppliers
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Did you actually read the news?

Yep, and it was not only Air Zimbabwe; Merpati rejected deliveries of the MA60. They originally ordered 15 aircraft, but in the end only took delivery of 3. They lost one in a crash, and the remaining 12 are still sitting at Xian Aircraft Factory's ramp. Something about the MA60 leaking oil excessively, and suspicion as to how Xian managed to pull together 15 MA60's on very short notice.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Yep, and it was not only Air Zimbabwe; Merpati rejected deliveries of the MA60. They originally ordered 15 aircraft, but in the end only took delivery of 3. They lost one in a crash, and the remaining 12 are still sitting at Xian Aircraft Factory's ramp. Something about the MA60 leaking oil excessively, and suspicion as to how Xian managed to pull together 15 MA60's on very short notice.

I am sure you are bad mouthing China aviation service... And regarding military sales after service support. China has been so far excellent. Venezula has order 8 Y-8 military transport plane is a testimonent.

As for the Merpati incident. Indonesia aviation are notorious for their operating procedure and bad flight record. Do you know the plane crashed in what circumstances? Under thick fog. Even a state of art B787 will crashed if handle improperly by incompetent pilots. Indonesia senator are also known for their bias against Chinese products. They try to blame the Merpati incident on Chinese hardware problem so that they can claim compensation from manufacturers.

As for Zimbabwe airline. They don't have money to pay for spare and you expect Xian to give them free? Xian aviation is not running charity. It is doing business. It need to earn money.. Quickie already point out the problem, why blame China?

Please get your facts right and read more before passing casual remark.

China has ambitions to compete against Airbus and Boeing in the commercial jet market but, in terms of exports, China has been making better progress with its turboprops.

Xian Aircraft, manufacturer of the 60-seat MA60 and MA600 turboprop, has quietly been accumulating a back-log of orders from airlines in the developing world. Air Congo ordered an additional MA60 in August, says Xu Bo, deputy managing director of Avic International, the international sales and marketing arm of Avic, Xian Aircraft’s parent. Also Peruvian start-up CDS Regional Express signed an order in May for four MA60s, two for passenger services and two for freighters, says Avic.

Other countries that have been in discussions for the purchase of MA60s include: Sri Lanka, the possible purchase of two for its second national carrier Mihin Lanka and four for the air force; Tajikistan, two for national carrier Tajik Air; Ecuador, two for the air force; and Zimbabwe, two more for national carrier Air Zimbabwe. Many of these countries currently use ex-Soviet equipment such as Antonov An-24/26s, but even Russian and Ukrainian aircraft-makers may face competition in their home markets. Avic says in a statement it has been speaking to the Russian civil aviation regulator about applying for Russian certification for the MA60. Another market in Chinese sights is the Middle East. Avic plans to have a MA600 on display at the Dubai Airshow on Nov. 13-17, says an Avic official, adding that this will be the first time the MA600 has been present at an overseas airshow. The MA600 is the same as the MA60, except it is a newer model. It has a newer version of Rockwell Collins’ avionics system and its main passenger door is nearer to the front, whereas the MA60 passenger door is further aft.

While there are many deals in the works for the MA60, Xian Aircraft already has MA60 commercial operators, such as: Air Congo (Republic of the Congo), Air Zimbabwe, Joy Air (China), Lao Airlines (Laos), Merpati Nusantara (Indonesia), Myanma Airways (Myanmar), Okay Airways (China), TAM (Bolivia), Yingan Airlines (China) and Zest Air (Philippines).

The Congo deal includes in-country customer support and a stockpile of spare parts. Avic in the past was criticized for failing to provide adequate support to its international customers, but in recent years it has expanded its customer support network. It has, for example, established customer support centers in Egypt, Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Xian Aircraft is also developing the MA700. Even though the name sounds similar to the MA600, Xian Aircraft promises this will be a completely new type and in no way will resemble the MA600. AviationWeek reported in April that the MA700, which is due for entry into service in 2015, will be a 70 and 90-seater. Presently there are no 90-seat turboprops in the world, but it is a market segment ATR and Bombardier says is viable.

While Chinese turboprop aircraft are becoming more prevalent in the developing world, there are no Chinese commercial jet aircraft that have been exported. China’s efforts in this segment are still fairly new. The only aircraft that it has to market are the Comac ARJ21 and C919. The ARJ21 has yet to receive Chinese certification – despite the fact that it had its first test flight on Nov. 28, 2008 – while the C919 is still in the early stages of development and is only due to have its first test flight in 2014.

However, China has been marketing the ARJ21 overseas for several years now, with little success. Its only ARJ21 export customers are Laos’ national carrier Lao Airlines, with an order for two; and Myanmar’s national domestic carrier Myanma Airways with an order for two. Lao’s order is now shaky because the airline last month ordered two Airbus A320s for delivery in October and November of this year. “Comac hasn’t yet received Chinese type certification from the CAAC for the ARJ21. We can’t wait,” Lao head of planning, Noudeng Chanthaphasouk, told AviationWeek in August.

It is understood that Lao Airlines and Myanma Airways both ordered their ARJ21s at the behest of their governments, which are strong political allies of China and rely on China’s largess.

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Quickie

Colonel
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Yep, ......

Then you obviously missed the important points. Let me just quote the part of the news again.

The national airline is battling to secure spare parts from the Chinese manufacturer after the Zimbabwean authorities bungled the initial deal after they signed a purchase contract without a spares back-up service.The MA60 plies domestic and regional routes which include Harare, Bulaway , Victoria Falls, Lubumbashi and Johannesburg.
Air Zimbabwe has in recent months failed to service some routes or delayed passengers because planes could not fly due to a lack of spares or fuel, blamed on an acute shortage of foreign currency to pay foreign suppliers
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I am sure you are bad mouthing China aviation service... And regarding military sales after service support. China has been so far excellent. Venezula has order 8 Y-8 military transport plane is a testimonent.

As for the Merpati incident. Indonesia aviation are notorious for their operating procedure and bad flight record. Do you know the plane crashed in what circumstances? Under thick fog. Even a state of art B787 will crashed if handle improperly by incompetent pilots. Indonesia senator are also known for their bias against Chinese products. They try to blame the Merpati incident on Chinese hardware problem so that they can claim compensation from manufacturers.

As for Zimbabwe airline. They don't have money to pay for spare and you expect Xian to give them free? Xian aviation is not running charity. It is doing business. It need to earn money.. Quickie already point out the problem, why blame China?

Please get your facts right and read more before passing casual remark.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I'm not talking about the Merpati crash; I'm talking about Merpati rejecting and continues to reject delivery of 12 MA60's, while only taking delivery of 3, and loosing one, leaving 2 left.

Not to mention that a number of Chinese airlines have discontinued using the MA60; Sichuan Airlines has 2 stored, China Eastern Airlines had 3, and China United Airlines had 2.

Beyond that, Zest Airways has stopped delivery of its remaining 6 MA60's. That's a grand total of 25 MA60's that customers have either rejected deliveries, or have permanently stored, over half sold. That does not inspire confidence in the aircraft, when most of your customers stop using your product, and the bulk of the order is from one carrier (Joy Air) that is controlled by the manufacturer itself.
 
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