Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

This is another typical example of the FAA purchasing old second hand (or in the case of the Mirage F-1s third hand) equipment. I was very disappointed in the acquisition of the Mirage F-1s. However as a stop gap measure to replace the Mirage IIIs until a more suitable replacement could be found is understandable. The F-1 and III are logistically similar. This could have been an interim until the JF-17, or other type entered service.

The purchase of the Kfir block 60 is completely out of the blue. Especially in such small quantities. Even with the AESA radar and derby missiles it is still no match for the F-16s with AMRAM. What can I say…? I am consistently amazed at the lack of foresight by those in positions of responsibility for equipment acquisition.

I think I’ll just sit outside today and have that bottle of Malbec……

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The JF-17 could have been an excellent replacement for the Mirage F-1s and the A-4ARs in inventory the production line could have run for several years and could have also replaced the Super Etendards in the Naval Aviation.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

thunderchief said:

Kfir could not out turn neither JF-17 nor Mig-29SMT , but it is faster then JF-17 and potentially could win in vertical combat . In BVR combat , AESA equipped Kfir is better then JF-17 and even slightly then Mig-29 equipped with Zhuk-ME , as both fighters have mechanically-steered radars (KLJ-7 and Zhuk-ME ) . Finally in ground-strike mode , Kfir could carry substantially more weapons then JF-17 and about the same as Mig-29SMT .

As for J-8II , I don't know if it is offered for export , at what price and what equipment could it carry . If you have the data , we could compare it with said fighters .

Click to expand...

That is provided JF-17 wish to engage kfir in vertical fight. In dogfight, Kfir will hardly has any chance of survival against JF-17 if both fighter pilot are equally competent. Kfir old airframe even makes it unlikely it be able to pull the require G without breaking the airframe. Agility in modern warfare is essential becos it you are chase by BVR missile. You need to more tighter and sharper turn to shake off BVR In critical moment.

Kfir is essentially a mirage III airframe which is limited in range and the fact the J-79 turbojet will be more thirsty than RD-93 turbofan. Plus i doubt kfir will offer more payload than JF-17 given the J79 engine.

Its not about just fitted with a modern AESA and suddenly you are a better plane. Then what for with all the new 4th or 5th gen fighter for?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

The purchase of the Kfir block 60 is completely out of the blue. Especially in such small quantities. Even with the AESA radar and derby missiles it is still no match for the F-16s with AMRAM. What can I say…? I am consistently amazed at the lack of foresight by those in positions of responsibility for equipment acquisition.

Click to expand...

Don't underestimate Kfir . Remember that Indian Mig-21 Bison with Israeli jammers managed to surprise even USAF F-16s and F-15s . I'm certain that DRFM jammers on Kfir are even better in this regard .

Lion said:

That is provided JF-17 wish to engage kfir in vertical fight. In dogfight, Kfir will hardly has any chance of survival against JF-17 if both fighter pilot are equally competent. Kfir old airframe even makes it unlikely it be able to pull the require G without breaking the airframe. Agility in modern warfare is essential becos it you are chase by BVR missile. You need to more tighter and sharper turn to shake off BVR In critical moment.

Kfir is essentially a mirage III airframe which is limited in range and the fact the J-79 turbojet will be more thirsty than RD-93 turbofan. Plus i doubt kfir will offer more payload than JF-17 given the J79 engine.

Its not about just fitted with a modern AESA and suddenly you are a better plane. Then what for with all the new 4th or 5th gen fighter for?

Click to expand...

IMHO , in real war , Kfirs would avoid close combat and instead relay on surprise attacks and good speed . Airframe is old and somewhat obsolete but is not hopeless (G-Limits: +7.5 g / -3.5 g ) . Payload is greater then on JF-17 , and range is shorter . These are known facts , so there is no discussion about this .

Overall , upgrading older airframes like Kfir has some sense up to a point . They could compete with early model 4th gen planes and with reasonable price they could be viable option for poorer countries .

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The info came from the Argentine MoD, through a source of Telam (official news agency here in Argentina). The Kfir will come with all the "teeth" (Derbys and Python-5 and Litenning II) ... in fact Argentina was having negotiations for these 2 missiles before the decision of buying the Kfir. The official announcement will come the first trimester of 2014.

The government will buy 18 IAI-KFir Block 60 plus spares for the A-4AR (23 operational and 7 in storage due to lack of spares) and for the KC-130 & C-130 for +/- $us 500M. The reality of the Mirage F-1 purchase was to fill some gaps in units of the FAA (besides as a wink to Repsol/Spain for the expropriation of YPF).

[video=youtube;mBTVHeSyP_w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBTVHeSyP_w&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Let’s see now…. That’s $US 500 M to Israel for the Kfir, missiles and spare parts and $US 200 M to Spain for the Mirage F-1s and extra airframes for parts. The question stands how many new JF-17, or other aircraft, could have been acquired for $US 700M. At least 30 JF-17…….
Any thoughts?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

thunderchief said:

Don't underestimate Kfir . Remember that Indian Mig-21 Bison with Israeli jammers managed to surprise even USAF F-16s and F-15s . I'm certain that DRFM jammers on Kfir are even better in this regard .



IMHO , in real war , Kfirs would avoid close combat and instead relay on surprise attacks and good speed . Airframe is old and somewhat obsolete but is not hopeless (G-Limits: +7.5 g / -3.5 g

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

) . Payload is greater then on JF-17 , and range is shorter . These are known facts , so there is no discussion about this .

Overall , upgrading older airframes like Kfir has some sense up to a point . They could compete with early model 4th gen planes and with reasonable price they could be viable option for poorer countries .

Click to expand...

It would be a threat to be taken seriously. However, it may have fourth generation avionics, but it is still a third generation airframe.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Let’s see now…. That’s $US 500 M to Israel for the Kfir, missiles and spare parts and $US 200 M to Spain for the Mirage F-1s and extra airframes for parts. The question stands how many new JF-17, or other aircraft, could have been acquired for $US 700M. At least 30 JF-17…….
Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

Unit cost
Block 1: US$15–20 million (estimated)[3][4][5]
Block 2: US$20–25 million[6]

Click to expand...

Lets say $30 M for some missiles and spare parts for good measure.

$30 million/ $700 million = 23 or 24 JF-17 fighters

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

It would be a threat to be taken seriously. However, it may have fourth generation avionics, but it is still a third generation airframe.

Click to expand...

4.5 gen avionics to be precise There is one more angle we didn't discus . You and I would choose JF-17 over Kfir , but Argentinian government has to consider political angle of all of this . Argentine is still in South America and still in the sphere of influence of US and its powerful Israeli lobby . Buying fighters is not just technical matter , it is also political statement . By choosing Kfir and Mirage F.1 Argentinian government signaled it is still allied with West , unlike other countries like Venezuela .

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

thunderchief said:

4.5 gen avionics to be precise There is one more angle we didn't discus . You and I would choose JF-17 over Kfir , but Argentinian government has to consider political angle of all of this . Argentine is still in South America and still in the sphere of influence of US and its powerful Israeli lobby . Buying fighters is not just technical matter , it is also political statement . By choosing Kfir and Mirage F.1 Argentinian government signaled it is still allied with West , unlike other countries like Venezuela .

Click to expand...

Very well put! You are correct in your observation and comment.