Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Kurt said:

The aforementioned triad is the best decription of CAS aircrafts. The difference between helicopters and turboprops are stall speed, maximum speed and endurance. A compound copter can be the best mix for these different demands. With various tilt-crafts such a solution has been attempted and with the Osprey finally implemented. For this reason the Osprey or AW609 are likely the basic design for future CAS aircrafts.

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ah but young grasshopper, tiltrotors are a design that has a critical flaw for external weapons.
where do you put them?
the standard logic would be on the wings, but the enlarged rotors prevent that. If you tried to mount missile hard points on the wings of a osprey they would interfere with the folding mechanism, and if you tried to fire them you would have to rotate the rotors to hover mode.
about the only place you could put them where they would not interfere would be on the hull fairings but that restricts your weapons load.
on the AW609 you don't need to fold the wings but the rotors are still there creating the same issue. The only way to resolve the problem is a near total redesign of the craft either involving internal carry with "bomb bays" or wing extension. The best of the two being the bomb bay as extending the wings would push the rotors of 609 out of optimum placement and prevent folding of osprey.
that's why I favor compound helicopters the main rotors are out of the way and a pusher is far to the six o'clock this means you have ample room for internal, external or both of weapons.

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Make it a double decker with stump wings for weapons, similar to a helicopter.
Mount a cannon sideways in the aircraft, limiting stump wing carriage to a few missiles.
You are correct that this craft will profit for a redesign for improved carriage.
The current design is for transport only. I used the word tilt and highlighted operating examples of tilts.
I don't know why the tiltfan option was not used as this offers easier convertability of a basic design
to a weapon carrier, an airborne radar surveillance aircraft and a tanker.

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

That is all well and fine , but you forgot one tiny detail - low cost . Tiltrotors are terribly expensive , V-22 Osprey is more expensive then F-16 . With modifications you mentioned , you could expect that price to increase further , which beats original idea of low cost COIN aircraft for poor countries .

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

One advantage that a pilot has over a UAV is a better sense of his surroundings and the ability to assess how much danger is posed against the aircraft and his person.
The threat posed to the aircraft is, many times, difficult to determine. Depending on the kind of enemy and which equipment the enemy possesses, there are different ways to accomplish this objective. Additionally an enemy may hinder the continuation of the mission, the pilot needs to take actions in order to both avoid the threat and (if possible) accomplish the mission.
Hopefully the Air Force or Army unit initiating the mission will have good intelligence and perform a threat evaluation and prepare a mission that incorporates the appropriate countermeasures. The Pucaras where very effective in strafing and bombing enemy positions. They used a low flying tactic which provided little reaction time to fire on the aircraft, conversely it also provided little time to acquire and hit a ground target. In today’s combat environment the COIN aircraft will need to rely on the INT from the UAVs for both location and threat determination.

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Since I’ve reading a lot of bed time stories to my children I will quote Winnie the Pooh which is appropriate before beginning any COIN mission:

“Before beginning a Hunt, it is wise to ask someone what you are looking for before you begin looking for it.”

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Here's an interesting low cost battlefield attack aircraft the Iraqi military is using Cessna type aircraft with Hellfire missiles attached to them to battle recent militant attacks.

If your not interested watching the whole video you can jump to time 3:20 for the anecdote.

[video=youtube;PNIXqSk91vk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNIXqSk91vk[/video]

Iraqi Air Force fires Hellfire from an AC-208

US Air Force Air Advisors of the 321st Air Expeditionary Wing marked an Advise, Train, Assist and Equip milestone recently, highlighting the success of their Iraqi Air Force counterparts following the second-ever Hellfire rocket launch from an Iraqi Air Force AC-208 Cessna Caravan. On Nov. 8, an Iraqi Air Force AC-208 Cessna Caravan aircrew fired a Hellfire missile at a target on the Aziziyah Training Range south of Baghdad, scoring a direct hit and destroying the target. Iraqi Airmen have trained continuously for the Hellfire mission, mastering the weapons load, target attack, and airmanship skills necessary to maintain proficiency since completing their first Hellfire launch in 2009, which also resulted in a direct hit of a training target. US Army photo by Sergeant Brandon Bolick.

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Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

ABC78 said:

Here's an interesting low cost battlefield attack aircraft the Iraqi military is using Cessna type aircraft with Hellfire missiles attached to them to battle recent militant attacks.

If your not interested watching the whole video you can jump to time 3:20 for the anecdote.

[video=youtube;PNIXqSk91vk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNIXqSk91vk[/video]

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That's pretty much the solution Thunderchief wrote about in his earlier post. If you are going to fly at medium altitude (outside MANPAD range), relying on EO sensors and shooting standoff missiles, what's the point of buying a specialized attack aircraft? Might as well just fly cheaper and more versatile Cessna. Workable solution for smaller countries without independent SatCom network.

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Kurt said:

Make it a double decker with stump wings for weapons, similar to a helicopter.
Mount a cannon sideways in the aircraft, limiting stump wing carriage to a few missiles.
You are correct that this craft will profit for a redesign for improved carriage.
The current design is for transport only. I used the word tilt and highlighted operating examples of tilts.
I don't know why the tiltfan option was not used as this offers easier convertability of a basic design
to a weapon carrier, an airborne radar surveillance aircraft and a tanker.

Click to expand...

thunderchief said:

That is all well and fine , but you forgot one tiny detail - low cost . Tiltrotors are terribly expensive , V-22 Osprey is more expensive then F-16 . With modifications you mentioned , you could expect that price to increase further , which beats original idea of low cost COIN aircraft for poor countries .

Click to expand...

[video=youtube_share;mJc6TX7Reoo]http://youtu.be/mJc6TX7Reoo[/video]
A nonconventional tiltrotor configuration like this might be better suited.
the duel engines placed over the wing structure they are kept from enemy fire. the large wing offers plenty of space for weapons mounting. Although Garrow is looking to larger types I think Unmanned and two seat configuration would likely be optimum, as the size of the body, Rotor and wing structure become rather difficult to manage.

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

adeptitus said:

From the Q-5 thread, Textron Scorpion just had its maiden flight last week:

[video=youtube;CQgcUQiFuxs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQgcUQiFuxs[/video]

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This aircraft would be a great replacement for the A-4 Skyhawks (and types) around the world.

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

I’ve always liked the Rutan design of the turbofan “Killer Bee”. Can you imagine these aircraft working in tandem (one spotter or target marker and the other in attack) or with assistance form a UAV spotter.
[video=youtube;zG9LlHcX8lg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG9LlHcX8lg&hd=1[/video]