Equation
Lieutenant General
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
Any drones or UAV building or purchases by Argentina?
Any drones or UAV building or purchases by Argentina?
Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries
- Thread starter Miragedriver
- Start date
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
Agreed! What is needed are several strike UAVs and some AWAC UAVs. The county already manufactures some light UAVs exclusively for reconnaissance operations.
UAVs currently under production are: , Lipán M3 - reconnaissance (2007), Lipán XM4 - reconnaissance (development), Mantis (UAV) - combat (2009) Guardian (UAV), AeroDreams Strix Reconnaissance (2006), AeroVision Arcangel (AeroVision) Agricultural and civilian surveillance (2010)
Agreed! What is needed are several strike UAVs and some AWAC UAVs. The county already manufactures some light UAVs exclusively for reconnaissance operations.
UAVs currently under production are: , Lipán M3 - reconnaissance (2007), Lipán XM4 - reconnaissance (development), Mantis (UAV) - combat (2009) Guardian (UAV), AeroDreams Strix Reconnaissance (2006), AeroVision Arcangel (AeroVision) Agricultural and civilian surveillance (2010)
Equation
Lieutenant General
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
Any pics on the Nostromo Yarará?
Any pics on the Nostromo Yarará?
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Equation
Lieutenant General
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
If Argentina is to acquire new military hardware, they need to make sure that they have the budget allocated for maintenance and operations. Looking at the Argentina Navy today, they spent billions in acquisition, but the ships are rarely deployed to sea. Between UK’s embargo on parts and lack of funds, the ships lack maintenance, spares, and the munitions are past their expiry date. The sinking of the ARA Santísima Trinidad is a glaring example.
Argentina’s defense budget is only 1/12th of UK’s, and UK’s defense expenditure for Falklands/Malvinas is only 1.1% of its defense budget. So even if the Argentina were about to acquire enough hardware to cause the UK’s to double or triple its defense expenditure for the Falklands/Malvinas, it’s something that the UK could still afford. It’s not really a winnable match at this time, so the Argentine's have to be patient and wait for an opportunity (peaceful or otherwise) in the future. Russia will likely not offer tech transfers for only 24 Su-27’s, and the planes are not going to deter the RN’s future AC battle group with AAW destroyers and F-35’s.
If Argentina is to buy the JF-17/FC-1, they’re in a good position to bargain hard for best prices and purchase terms as the first “Western” and South American customer. For China’s defense industry this is a foot in the door, like the recent HQ-9 sale to Turkey. Argentina should aim for self-sufficiency in the aircraft overhaul, modernization, and % in local parts production. Like it or not, reliance in European imports means that in any Argentine-UK conflict, Argentina will be placed under arms embargo by fair weather suppliers like France. China may or may not be an all-weather friend to Argentina, but the odds are still better.
As for transferring older aircraft to the Argentine Navy, IMO their Navy should look to reduce the current size of its fleet by mothballing, selling, or scrapping older navy ships for parts. The cost savings can be applied to improving conditions of newer vessels and invest in submarines, which are more of a deterrence than surface warships against the RN. Instead of buying more French munitions, the Argentine should consider replacing them with alternate suppliers such as China (or Russia/India/Israel/?). More funds should also be allocated for EEZ patrol & protection against poachers, as well as investments in domestic fishing industry.
It's way too early to discuss PAK-FA or J-31 for Argentina.
If Argentina is to acquire new military hardware, they need to make sure that they have the budget allocated for maintenance and operations. Looking at the Argentina Navy today, they spent billions in acquisition, but the ships are rarely deployed to sea. Between UK’s embargo on parts and lack of funds, the ships lack maintenance, spares, and the munitions are past their expiry date. The sinking of the ARA Santísima Trinidad is a glaring example.
Argentina’s defense budget is only 1/12th of UK’s, and UK’s defense expenditure for Falklands/Malvinas is only 1.1% of its defense budget. So even if the Argentina were about to acquire enough hardware to cause the UK’s to double or triple its defense expenditure for the Falklands/Malvinas, it’s something that the UK could still afford. It’s not really a winnable match at this time, so the Argentine's have to be patient and wait for an opportunity (peaceful or otherwise) in the future. Russia will likely not offer tech transfers for only 24 Su-27’s, and the planes are not going to deter the RN’s future AC battle group with AAW destroyers and F-35’s.
If Argentina is to buy the JF-17/FC-1, they’re in a good position to bargain hard for best prices and purchase terms as the first “Western” and South American customer. For China’s defense industry this is a foot in the door, like the recent HQ-9 sale to Turkey. Argentina should aim for self-sufficiency in the aircraft overhaul, modernization, and % in local parts production. Like it or not, reliance in European imports means that in any Argentine-UK conflict, Argentina will be placed under arms embargo by fair weather suppliers like France. China may or may not be an all-weather friend to Argentina, but the odds are still better.
As for transferring older aircraft to the Argentine Navy, IMO their Navy should look to reduce the current size of its fleet by mothballing, selling, or scrapping older navy ships for parts. The cost savings can be applied to improving conditions of newer vessels and invest in submarines, which are more of a deterrence than surface warships against the RN. Instead of buying more French munitions, the Argentine should consider replacing them with alternate suppliers such as China (or Russia/India/Israel/?). More funds should also be allocated for EEZ patrol & protection against poachers, as well as investments in domestic fishing industry.
It's way too early to discuss PAK-FA or J-31 for Argentina.
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Miragedriver
Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
In all honesty, I have always tried to steer the conversation away from any Argentina / United Kingdom conflict. These are two nations that should never have gone to war. With the exception of the dispute over the islands they have always had close ties and cooperation. Many well to do Argentines have been educated in the UK, or America and appreciate the privileges offered there. Too bad we cannot provide that for our citizens now.
Anyhow, the topic for this forum was to discuss the possibilities of replacement aircraft for the Argentine Air Force, which is currently operating 30+ modernized A-4M (now called A-4AR) and 14+ Mirage III (Neshers and Mirage V were retired in December 2012). The Mirage III are a mix of the original Mirage IIEA purchased in the mid seventies and some Mirage IIIEJ purchased from Israel (these have already been through two wars before Argentina purchased them). They are a threat to the safety of the pilots.
The main threat and antagonist to Argentina and possible future war is over the claims to the Antarctic (as Kurt very eloquently pointed on page 13 of this thread) is,and always has been, Chile. There are not only overlapping claims in the Antarctica, but also they have always coveted Tierra del Fuego and the provinces of Patagonia and Santa Cruz (there’s oil in these plains and off the coast). A fear that Argentina has is that a conflict with Chile could escalate into one, which includes, the UK as a supporting member to Chile. Since Chiles and the UK's claim overlap Argentina’s claim in the Antarctic, and since Chile has already collaborated once before with the UK during the war.
The current situation is that Chile has not only purchased 10 new F-16C/D from the US, but also 36 used F-16MLU from the Netherlands. Chile also operates 16 F-5 Tiger III (Israeli upgraded avionic, Derby missile, etc, these many be sold to Uruguay). Just the F-5 Tiger IIIs are enough to deal with the 14 ancient Mirages. The F-16’s would decimate the entire Air Force with little effort. The other side of the coin is that Chile being narrow and long, could easily be attacked. The runways could (or as Woody Allen would say “a definite maybe”) be taken out of service. So basically you are at a first strike scenario, and whoever attacks first would have a strategic advantage, with Chile currently having better olds.
The Argentinian considerations for a new fighter should consider requirements to carry out useful tasks during ongoing disputes that can turn violent with Chile over territory claims around Cape Horn. Cape Horn is one of the most violent seas bordering to the harsh lands of Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego and the Andes mountains that require climate and terrain trained troops to carry out demanding missions and be useful in warfare. Aircrafts operating there share many requirements with Canada, Sweden, Finland, Norway and Russia. The major problem is not having a capable aircraft, but having a capable system with none too weak component, including the fighter. This relies heavily on giving the fighters direction and timing by superior intelligence in order to win aerial combat. That is why a mix of Su-27s and JF-17 may/could make a good combination.
In regards to the other Items. Yes, the navy has allowed the vessels to deteriorate and ammunitions to expire. The ARA Santísima Trinidad was one of two type 42 Destroyers purchased prior to the war. One of the vessels has been converted to a Helicopter/ fast reaction force vessel The ARA Santísima Trinidad was used as spare parts for the other vessel and was scheduled to be towed and set up as a floating Museum to the War (Ironic that it sunk). The military (including Navy and Air Force) have always kept their equipment in meticulous condition. It has been only since the presidency of the Kirchner’s (both Nestor and later Cristina) that funds for the military have been substantially reduced. It is hoped that when this group of daffs are out of office that we will see normalcy return.
Any nation that does not provide for the defense of its citizenry will soon cease to exist or become a puppet of its neighbors.
In all honesty, I have always tried to steer the conversation away from any Argentina / United Kingdom conflict. These are two nations that should never have gone to war. With the exception of the dispute over the islands they have always had close ties and cooperation. Many well to do Argentines have been educated in the UK, or America and appreciate the privileges offered there. Too bad we cannot provide that for our citizens now.
Anyhow, the topic for this forum was to discuss the possibilities of replacement aircraft for the Argentine Air Force, which is currently operating 30+ modernized A-4M (now called A-4AR) and 14+ Mirage III (Neshers and Mirage V were retired in December 2012). The Mirage III are a mix of the original Mirage IIEA purchased in the mid seventies and some Mirage IIIEJ purchased from Israel (these have already been through two wars before Argentina purchased them). They are a threat to the safety of the pilots.
The main threat and antagonist to Argentina and possible future war is over the claims to the Antarctic (as Kurt very eloquently pointed on page 13 of this thread) is,and always has been, Chile. There are not only overlapping claims in the Antarctica, but also they have always coveted Tierra del Fuego and the provinces of Patagonia and Santa Cruz (there’s oil in these plains and off the coast). A fear that Argentina has is that a conflict with Chile could escalate into one, which includes, the UK as a supporting member to Chile. Since Chiles and the UK's claim overlap Argentina’s claim in the Antarctic, and since Chile has already collaborated once before with the UK during the war.
The current situation is that Chile has not only purchased 10 new F-16C/D from the US, but also 36 used F-16MLU from the Netherlands. Chile also operates 16 F-5 Tiger III (Israeli upgraded avionic, Derby missile, etc, these many be sold to Uruguay). Just the F-5 Tiger IIIs are enough to deal with the 14 ancient Mirages. The F-16’s would decimate the entire Air Force with little effort. The other side of the coin is that Chile being narrow and long, could easily be attacked. The runways could (or as Woody Allen would say “a definite maybe”) be taken out of service. So basically you are at a first strike scenario, and whoever attacks first would have a strategic advantage, with Chile currently having better olds.
The Argentinian considerations for a new fighter should consider requirements to carry out useful tasks during ongoing disputes that can turn violent with Chile over territory claims around Cape Horn. Cape Horn is one of the most violent seas bordering to the harsh lands of Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego and the Andes mountains that require climate and terrain trained troops to carry out demanding missions and be useful in warfare. Aircrafts operating there share many requirements with Canada, Sweden, Finland, Norway and Russia. The major problem is not having a capable aircraft, but having a capable system with none too weak component, including the fighter. This relies heavily on giving the fighters direction and timing by superior intelligence in order to win aerial combat. That is why a mix of Su-27s and JF-17 may/could make a good combination.
In regards to the other Items. Yes, the navy has allowed the vessels to deteriorate and ammunitions to expire. The ARA Santísima Trinidad was one of two type 42 Destroyers purchased prior to the war. One of the vessels has been converted to a Helicopter/ fast reaction force vessel The ARA Santísima Trinidad was used as spare parts for the other vessel and was scheduled to be towed and set up as a floating Museum to the War (Ironic that it sunk). The military (including Navy and Air Force) have always kept their equipment in meticulous condition. It has been only since the presidency of the Kirchner’s (both Nestor and later Cristina) that funds for the military have been substantially reduced. It is hoped that when this group of daffs are out of office that we will see normalcy return.
Any nation that does not provide for the defense of its citizenry will soon cease to exist or become a puppet of its neighbors.
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Miragedriver
Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
Additionally there was never any implied, or suggestion that the Russian should provide technology transfer for only 24+/- Su-27. Such a small number would imply a direct purchase similar to that of Malaysia. Local assembly of the JF-17 would also not require a technology transfer. They could be assembled from kit provided by the PRC, or if a license is provided all the better.
We could also go over at length (on the NAVAL thread, not here) the Kh-35 or C-802 launched from either Su-27 of JF-17 (respectively), and their ability to affect modern European naval vessels.
Additionally there was never any implied, or suggestion that the Russian should provide technology transfer for only 24+/- Su-27. Such a small number would imply a direct purchase similar to that of Malaysia. Local assembly of the JF-17 would also not require a technology transfer. They could be assembled from kit provided by the PRC, or if a license is provided all the better.
We could also go over at length (on the NAVAL thread, not here) the Kh-35 or C-802 launched from either Su-27 of JF-17 (respectively), and their ability to affect modern European naval vessels.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
Chiming in.
just because Argentina has the money does not mean she has the will. The current government sits as a rare civilian government in a nation who's history is filled with military rule. This may cause a repeat of the naval rot basicly a situation where in the Argentine air force may be limited to either a Mexican style single token fighter squadron. That spends most of its time in the hangers.
if however Argentina's government does have the will to buy I rule out a Gen 5 the national needs and cost just don't fit.
a flanker is a option and given the end roads the Russians have made in south America particularly Venezuela the key factor is cost.
Fulcrum is another option from the Russia and it has more a budget happy price.
F20 (J10 export) or JF17 seems a option it has good capability's and I am sure the Chinese would love to get a fighter foot in the Latin American door.
JAS 39 would be the best option if available. Its light easy to maintain cheap but well suited.to most missions. Grippens should be selling like hot cakes.
F16 is the typical offer for Latin.american nations from the US its a good option to quickly dismissed. Another option in that line might be the FA 50 from Korea. Light nimble good as a trainer and a fair fighter.
My thinking is the Mig or the one of the Chinese options they did try for the buy. The US holds sway over F16 and parts of FA50 the us is a.close English partner. And the bad blood both real and.perceived would sour the milk. Eurofighter now.more.or less owns Grippen. And Rafale demands French only accessories.
Chiming in.
just because Argentina has the money does not mean she has the will. The current government sits as a rare civilian government in a nation who's history is filled with military rule. This may cause a repeat of the naval rot basicly a situation where in the Argentine air force may be limited to either a Mexican style single token fighter squadron. That spends most of its time in the hangers.
if however Argentina's government does have the will to buy I rule out a Gen 5 the national needs and cost just don't fit.
a flanker is a option and given the end roads the Russians have made in south America particularly Venezuela the key factor is cost.
Fulcrum is another option from the Russia and it has more a budget happy price.
F20 (J10 export) or JF17 seems a option it has good capability's and I am sure the Chinese would love to get a fighter foot in the Latin American door.
JAS 39 would be the best option if available. Its light easy to maintain cheap but well suited.to most missions. Grippens should be selling like hot cakes.
F16 is the typical offer for Latin.american nations from the US its a good option to quickly dismissed. Another option in that line might be the FA 50 from Korea. Light nimble good as a trainer and a fair fighter.
My thinking is the Mig or the one of the Chinese options they did try for the buy. The US holds sway over F16 and parts of FA50 the us is a.close English partner. And the bad blood both real and.perceived would sour the milk. Eurofighter now.more.or less owns Grippen. And Rafale demands French only accessories.
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?
Interesting. Well here’s a possible list of aircraft, which I have updated since originally starting this thread:
1) JAS-39 Gripen, but it has British Avionics/Radar, etc…., and they own an interest in Saab so that eliminates the JAS-39. Too bad, since it’s such a great aircraft and inexpensive to maintain.
2) The SU-27 this would be my first choice. Two squadrons of 12 aircraft each plus 4 OCU aircraft would do nicely.
3) The Mig-29 would also work well and could be purchased much cheaper than the SU-27. The maintenance and support issue really concerns me though.
4) The F-18 was rejected because it has two engines. This poor excuse since Spain purchased some additional F-18 from desert storage for around $US20 million each (with extra engines to boot). It was rejected on two reasons; first it’s American and the second is that the English were concerned that Argentina could have an American Aircraft with BVR AMRAAM.
5) The F-16 was rejected because of under belly intake and runway debris ingestion (an unlikely story, I could use the same excuse as above).
6) The Rafale was rejected because there would be no technology transfer and its way too expensive and unaffordable.
7) The J-10 could be an interesting and great option. However I don’t see China selling one of their best aircraft to Argentina, since there is no track record, or long term alliance.
8) The Spanish Mirage F-1’s they were originally rejected because of the airframe fatigue, but yet now they are being purchased (I still cannot get by head wrapped around this deal).
9) The JF-17 that’s near the performance of the F-16 and would cost less to maintain and upgrade.
9) The Jordanian Mirage F-1’s (that deal is now DOA)
10) Which leaves us with the Mirage 2000, but nobody will sell them since they’re still useful.
11) The AT-50 would be very nice but the F404 engine would kill the deal.
12) We could consider the Kfir, but at $US20 million each you’re better off with JF-17s
Interesting. Well here’s a possible list of aircraft, which I have updated since originally starting this thread:
1) JAS-39 Gripen, but it has British Avionics/Radar, etc…., and they own an interest in Saab so that eliminates the JAS-39. Too bad, since it’s such a great aircraft and inexpensive to maintain.
2) The SU-27 this would be my first choice. Two squadrons of 12 aircraft each plus 4 OCU aircraft would do nicely.
3) The Mig-29 would also work well and could be purchased much cheaper than the SU-27. The maintenance and support issue really concerns me though.
4) The F-18 was rejected because it has two engines. This poor excuse since Spain purchased some additional F-18 from desert storage for around $US20 million each (with extra engines to boot). It was rejected on two reasons; first it’s American and the second is that the English were concerned that Argentina could have an American Aircraft with BVR AMRAAM.
5) The F-16 was rejected because of under belly intake and runway debris ingestion (an unlikely story, I could use the same excuse as above).
6) The Rafale was rejected because there would be no technology transfer and its way too expensive and unaffordable.
7) The J-10 could be an interesting and great option. However I don’t see China selling one of their best aircraft to Argentina, since there is no track record, or long term alliance.
8) The Spanish Mirage F-1’s they were originally rejected because of the airframe fatigue, but yet now they are being purchased (I still cannot get by head wrapped around this deal).
9) The JF-17 that’s near the performance of the F-16 and would cost less to maintain and upgrade.
9) The Jordanian Mirage F-1’s (that deal is now DOA)
10) Which leaves us with the Mirage 2000, but nobody will sell them since they’re still useful.
11) The AT-50 would be very nice but the F404 engine would kill the deal.
12) We could consider the Kfir, but at $US20 million each you’re better off with JF-17s