Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Giving Teeth to COIN aircraft



]
TBM 850 Radar


The EMB-314 Super Tucano appears to be the ideal COIN aircraft. It’s relatively cheap, has a good endurance and it can carry a wide range of weapons, including the AIM-9L Sidewinder. The radar on the SOCATA TBM 850 may just be a weather radar, but given the historical significance of the radar equipped F4U Corsair, there lays the potential to expand the intercept capability.

Given that governments require greater capability from the aircraft within their air forces, I wondered if a radar unit would give the Super Tucano greater flexibility, especially if it could engage fighter aircraft? Such aircraft as the Dassault Mirage 50 and the Mirage F.1 were fitted with small radar dishes as the customers tendered to be from hot countries, which had the advantage of clear, blue skies. The same could be said for the Super Tucano, giving it the ability to attack aircraft beyond the visual range of the pilot. As the AIM-9L has a range of between 0.6 and 22 miles, this would vastly expand the Super Tucano’s repertoire. As for the layout, the radar antenna would be mounted in the wing pod, with the actual radar unit itself being mounted inside the fuselage, as close to the aircraft’s center of gravity as possible. Yes, a radar unit would add weight and drag, but this could be negated by having a single seat variant if necessary.

As the EMB-314 has a service ceiling of around 35,000 ft, this of course is dependent on aircraft weight, temperature etc, carrying a pair of drop tanks and Sidewinders, coupled with ground radar, gives an air force something of a trump card. Given its rough field capability, it isn’t fixed to large airbases as a modern jet fighter is, and allows the Super Tucano to survive day one of a significant conflict or avoid an Israeli style mass, pre-emptive strike

Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Just wondering, is Q-5 considered cheap?

I think Q-5 is quite suited for this roles, but the dragonfly does look quite attractive

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Dear members I’ve been away for a few months with minor heart problems, which are better. As you all have probable discovered that the equipment/material purchasing criteria for the Argentine armed forces has been dismal over the late two administrations. And will not get any better.

The recent talks with the Chinese government over the co production, or assemble from parts of the FC-1/JF-17 continue, but at low temperature on the stove. Who knows maybe it has all been a distraction based on the recent purchase of the Mirage F-1s from Spain.



I cannot understand why these aircraft where purchased over the Jordanian, or even French F-1s that where offered for sale The Jordanian package was an interesting one The offer was two fold, either 12 a1rcraft for $US100 million, or $US350 million for all 34 aircraft, simulator and engine/equipment. This would have provided an interesting logistics package, which would allow the immediate commissioning and operational self-sufficiency indeed based on the similarity of equipment between the Mirage III and F-1s. Secondly it is worth mentioning that aircraft are in good condition and with a little use. Undoubtedly, this last feature is of great interest to the air force and indicating a remaining useful life of the fighters. An average of only 1900 hours. Flown by each aircraft for a period of 26 to 28 years of service is quite little and makes it a viable platform for modernizations. In contrast with the F -1M and F- 1CT which are flying the pace of NATO since entered service and certainly have little remaining useful life given its extensive use.



There was $US350 million available for new air craft purchase, so the question now arises why did the Ministry of Defense acquire 20 aged aircraft for $US220 million? Worst yet 6 of these aircraft will be for parts (220/14 that’s more than 15 million for each flyable aircraft that only has 1,500 hours left). More and more the Jordanian deal would have been a better purchase (350/34 that’s a little more than 10 million for aircraft with an average of less that 2000 hours used on each). The Spanish aircraft have 7 to 8 years of life left in them, and then what? By that time the A-4AR fleet will also need replacement and the Ministry will then need to replace two aircraft types.

Even if the F-1 is an advancement over the Mirage III, it is still an old aircraft and is no match for F-16s
The Mirage F- 1C / E Jordan would have been a viable longer term and lower cost compared to the Spanish aircraft. The only silver lining to all this is in the logistics, the engine Snecma ATAR 9K50 has 1/3 of the ATAR compatible parts 9C of the Mirage III / V, in addition to a similar design appearance, so it would be straightforward transition. As noted in the previous report, the supply of spare parts is ensured by the ATAR Plus program and the large amount of used engines circulating in the market, as well as many hulks and old cells.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Dear members I’ve been away for a few months with minor heart problems, which are better.

Even if the F-1 is an advancement over the Mirage III, it is still an old aircraft and is no match for F-16s
The Mirage F- 1C / E Jordan would have been a viable longer term and lower cost compared to the Spanish aircraft. The only silver lining to all this is in the logistics, the engine Snecma ATAR 9K50 has 1/3 of the ATAR compatible parts 9C of the Mirage III / V, in addition to a similar design appearance, so it would be straightforward transition. As noted in the previous report, the supply of spare parts is ensured by the ATAR Plus program and the large amount of used engines circulating in the market, as well as many hulks and old cells.

Click to expand...

Mirage, glad to hear your heart problems are better, God bless you my friend. I just received a thumbs up regarding my annual cancer check up at MD Anderson in Houston. I will be back down there next week for some more procedures.

Thanks for the info on the Argentine F-1s. The only reason I can think for not going with he Jordanian package would be that they may have not been as well maintained as the Spanish aircraft, but do not know this.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Jeff Head said:

Mirage, glad to hear your heart problems are better, God bless you my friend. I just received a thumbs up regarding my annual cancer check up at MD Anderson in Houston. I will be back down there next week for some more procedures.

Thanks for the info on the Argentine F-1s. The only reason I can think for not going with he Jordanian package would be that they may have not been as well maintained as the Spanish aircraft, but do not know this.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the kind words my friend. I guess that after age fifty all our days are numbered. I consider all of you here at the forum as a kind of extended intellectual family where we can all exchange ideas, information concepts and some times just rant in a friendly manner. I hope that some day we will all have the opportunity to get together somewhere in the world and meet in person. Time for a Sinodefence Conference!

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Reprinted from the Brazil Defense forum:

May be Argentina can purchase these, since they are at the end of their useful life. Kind of like the Mirage F-1s from Spain. Please note the sarcastic tone in my voice.

The Brazilian government today announced that the much awaited F-X2 fighter jet deal will be finalized only by the end of this year.
The announcement comes despite an earlier promise by the government that the deal will be finalized by mid-2012. The Ministry of Defence informed the media that the global economic slowdown and the difficult financial condition prevailing in Brazil had forced them to take the decision, and today asked the bidders to keep their bids active until the end of this year.
The F-X2 fighter jet program was announced in 2008, by the then president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, to replace the ageing fighter jets of the Brazilian Air Force with next generation fighters. An earlier plan, for the fighter jet modernization was cancelled in 2004, due to various political and financial issues.
The Brazilian authorities were hoping to purchase a total of 36 fighter jets, to replace some of its ageing aircrafts such as the Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano, Northrop F-5E Tiger and Dassault Mirage 2000. Some of these aircrafts date back to 1980, and are nearing the end of their useful service life. 12 of the Mirage 2000s are set to be decommissioned next year, which will create a vacuum in the Brazilian Air Force, unless a deal can be quickly worked out.
According to the Brazilian sources, the French aerospace manufacturer Dassault Aviation is leading the fray with its Rafale delta-wing fighter aircraft. Recently the Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff had held talks with her French counterpart, François Hollande over the deal. Celso Amorim, the Brazilian defence minister is set to visit France next month, to hold further talks with the French authorities over the Rafale deal.
In addition to the Rafale, the Swedish aircraft manufacturer Saab is also in the contention with its JAS 39 Gripen multirole fighter. Also competing for the deal is the American aerospace giant Boeing, with its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

In reality this would be a golden opportunity for Argentina and Brazil to collaborate and purchase one fight type for both nations.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Jeff Head said:

The only reason I can think for not going with he Jordanian package would be that they may have not been as well maintained as the Spanish aircraft, but do not know this.

Click to expand...

Hello Jeff, from what I’ve read the problem was that the Jordanian units were original and never upgraded. The average time on the airframe was between 2.000 and 2.500 hours. Personally I think it is better to have an aircraft with low hours that can be upgraded, than an aircraft near the end of its useful life that has a ten year-old upgrade. Any thoughts out there in the forum?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Personally I think it is better to have an aircraft with low hours that can be upgraded, than an aircraft near the end of its useful life that has a ten year-old upgrade. Any thoughts out there in the forum?

Click to expand...

i agree with this 100%.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

After many days of sitting down and crunching through a multitude of limitations and variable, including cost, serviceability, long tern viability and effectiveness of the equipment; I’ve come up with the following mix:

1) 24 Su-27 from Russia
2) 36 to 54 JF-17 assembled from china parts.
3) Retire the remaining Super Etendard’s and transfer the 23 to 30 remaining A-4ARs to the Navy.
4) Invest in the Russia’s Sukhoi PAK or China’s J-31 program in order to replace the Su-27s in 15 to 20 years.

This is one of the lesser expensive options.

Any Thoughts?