Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Here's a few more:

The AT-6B Texan being proposed for the US Light Attack/Armed Recon aircraft (LAAR)


70543046.jpg


I always like the A-37B Dragonfly, and quite a few are still around...and there is an AT-37E STOL concept out there too


a37b.jpg


Boeing's OV-10X Super Bronco


ov-10x-super-bronco.jpg



The Air Tractor AT-802U contestant for the LAAR


AirTractor_Paris_I.jpg

 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

These aircraft offer superior speed, loiter time and range over rotary wing types like Attack helicopters. but they suffer in terms of use from naval platforms and proximity to a moving force and maneuverability compared to a conventional or compound helicopter asset.
I find it ironic that the USAF and USN spent the twentieth century trying to move away from prop aircraft only to come back in the twenty first.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Getting back on topic

I’ve taken a few weeks to respond for a couple of reasons, the first was to read all of you interesting comments and the other was to get over the shock that the FAA is even considering the JF-17.

First I want to address some interesting questions that where introduced in the thread.

1) Argentina currently has the monies to purchase the required equipment to protect national borders (approximately 9 billion US dollars).

2) The nation spends a smaller percentage of its GDP on defense than its neighbor Chile.

3) The nation is in poor econonic condition due to current government policy.

4) The question then becomes why don’t we purchase the required equipment, but additionally maintain what we currently possess? The answer is simple. The current government is made up of ex anti-military government
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that hate the military. To the point of starving them of equipment, maintenance, support and pensions.

5) We can then say that we can but won’t spend the monies.

6) The current anti-American sentiment in the government has now also poisoned the well on all possible purchases from the USA. At one time in the 1990’s Argentina received the status of non NATO Allie.

But JF-17 is not a very durable aircraft (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, compared to 8,000+ hours for competitors such as the F-16 and Mirage 2000). And if one has enough mathematical skills to divide the price of the aircraft through the hours of airframe service life, it comes out as none cheaper than much better planes that are only a little more expensive.
While some here argue (and will argue) that this plane is cheap and that it is a great buy (for the money) and that you get so much for what you are paying, I have to disagree. In my opinion it is neither cheap nor do you get a lot for your money.

a) Because it is not really cheaper than better competitors in a comparable price range.

b) Because you don't really get a lot for what you pay.

It would be a good supplementation to better fighters, to fill up some numbers or to replace older fighters, such as the Mig-21, Mirage III, Mirage F-1 (but then again, if you are cash-strapped, can you even afford a large number, and having to supply two types of aircraft, and having to buy more expensive ones to make up for the cheap ones? At the end, the question is: Can you really afford to buy cheap? Because that scenario may turn out to be more expensive and yet less effective/capable than buying a bit more expensive but more capable jets in the first place, like Chile did with the purchase of 48 F-16s), but acquiring it as the main fighter aircraft would be "fatal", especially for small air forces with neighbors which fly much better aircraft. Even today, but even more so in 2020, it would still be like flying Mig-21s or F-5s in the 1990s

My choice would have been three squadrons of J-10 in conjunction with a squadron of gently used Su-27/30 types. This provides two more capable aircraft that use the same engine. As expected, China is now offering its new J-10 jet fighter for export. The price is $30 million, which is less than half what a new F-16I costs, but still more than the Chinese JF-17, which goes for $18+/- million. But there are still hundreds of used F-16s available, for under $15 million each. While the U.S. still has about 1,300 F-16s in service (about half with reserve units), over 4,200 were produced, and America has hundreds in storage. The end of the Cold War in led to a sharp cut in U.S.A. Air Force fighter squadrons. Additionally, the new F-35 will be replacing all U.S.A. F-16s in the next decade. So the U.S. will continue to have plenty of little-used F-16s sitting around, and these remain a cheaper and more effective aircraft than the JF-17, and on par with the J-10. However, since Argentina has effectively cut off the possibility to buy F-16s, then used the J-10s and/or Su-27s would provide a respectable, but more expensive, substitute. A used F-16C, built in the 1990s, would go for about $10 to $15 million on the open market.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Getting back on topic

I’ve taken a few weeks to respond for a couple of reasons, the first was to read all of you interesting comments and the other was to get over the shock that the FAA is even considering the JF-17.

First I want to address some interesting questions that where introduced in the thread.

1) Argentina currently has the monies to purchase the required equipment to protect national borders (approximately 9 billion US dollars).

2) The nation spends a smaller percentage of its GDP on defense than its neighbor Chile.

3) The nation is in poor econonic condition due to current government policy.

4) The question then becomes why don’t we purchase the required equipment, but additionally maintain what we currently possess? The answer is simple. The current government is made up of ex anti-military government
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that hate the military. To the point of starving them of equipment, maintenance, support and pensions.

5) We can then say that we can but won’t spend the monies.

6) The current anti-American sentiment in the government has now also poisoned the well on all possible purchases from the USA. At one time in the 1990’s Argentina received the status of non NATO Allie.

But JF-17 is not a very durable aircraft (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, compared to 8,000+ hours for competitors such as the F-16 and Mirage 2000). And if one has enough mathematical skills to divide the price of the aircraft through the hours of airframe service life, it comes out as none cheaper than much better planes that are only a little more expensive.
While some here argue (and will argue) that this plane is cheap and that it is a great buy (for the money) and that you get so much for what you are paying, I have to disagree. In my opinion it is neither cheap nor do you get a lot for your money.

a) Because it is not really cheaper than better competitors in a comparable price range.

b) Because you don't really get a lot for what you pay.

It would be a good supplementation to better fighters, to fill up some numbers or to replace older fighters, such as the Mig-21, Mirage III, Mirage F-1 (but then again, if you are cash-strapped, can you even afford a large number, and having to supply two types of aircraft, and having to buy more expensive ones to make up for the cheap ones? At the end, the question is: Can you really afford to buy cheap? Because that scenario may turn out to be more expensive and yet less effective/capable than buying a bit more expensive but more capable jets in the first place, like Chile did with the purchase of 48 F-16s), but acquiring it as the main fighter aircraft would be "fatal", especially for small air forces with neighbors which fly much better aircraft. Even today, but even more so in 2020, it would still be like flying Mig-21s or F-5s in the 1990s

My choice would have been three squadrons of J-10 in conjunction with a squadron of gently used Su-27/30 types. This provides two more capable aircraft that use the same engine. As expected, China is now offering its new J-10 jet fighter for export. The price is $30 million, which is less than half what a new F-16I costs, but still more than the Chinese JF-17, which goes for $18+/- million. But there are still hundreds of used F-16s available, for under $15 million each. While the U.S. still has about 1,300 F-16s in service (about half with reserve units), over 4,200 were produced, and America has hundreds in storage. The end of the Cold War in led to a sharp cut in U.S.A. Air Force fighter squadrons. Additionally, the new F-35 will be replacing all U.S.A. F-16s in the next decade. So the U.S. will continue to have plenty of little-used F-16s sitting around, and these remain a cheaper and more effective aircraft than the JF-17, and on par with the J-10. However, since Argentina has effectively cut off the possibility to buy F-16s, then used the J-10s and/or Su-27s would provide a respectable, but more expensive, substitute. A used F-16C, built in the 1990s, would go for about $10 to $15 million on the open market.

I see your reasoning however just to play devil's advocate a used F-16 may have even less airframe life left than a new JF-17 and a new JF-17 is likely more capable than a used 1990's F-16... and these are just tangible factors attributed to directly to the plane itself. In the world of military acquisitions the hardware itself is usually more secondary in nature. Primary reason remains economic assistance, favorable trades, transfer of technologies and a host of other factors.

From that standpoint buying from China may be more advantageous for Argentina than buying form the US assuming the US would even sell used F-16s to Argentina. As an example, one thing however is for sure! China is much much more likely to buy billion$ worth of beef, cattle, etc from Argentina than the US. LOL
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Getting back on topic

I’ve taken a few weeks to respond for a couple of reasons, the first was to read all of you interesting comments and the other was to get over the shock that the FAA is even considering the JF-17.

First I want to address some interesting questions that where introduced in the thread.

1) Argentina currently has the monies to purchase the required equipment to protect national borders (approximately 9 billion US dollars).

2) The nation spends a smaller percentage of its GDP on defense than its neighbor Chile.

3) The nation is in poor econonic condition due to current government policy.

4) The question then becomes why don’t we purchase the required equipment, but additionally maintain what we currently possess? The answer is simple. The current government is made up of ex anti-military government
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that hate the military. To the point of starving them of equipment, maintenance, support and pensions.

5) We can then say that we can but won’t spend the monies.

6) The current anti-American sentiment in the government has now also poisoned the well on all possible purchases from the USA. At one time in the 1990’s Argentina received the status of non NATO Allie.

But JF-17 is not a very durable aircraft (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, compared to 8,000+ hours for competitors such as the F-16 and Mirage 2000). And if one has enough mathematical skills to divide the price of the aircraft through the hours of airframe service life, it comes out as none cheaper than much better planes that are only a little more expensive.
While some here argue (and will argue) that this plane is cheap and that it is a great buy (for the money) and that you get so much for what you are paying, I have to disagree. In my opinion it is neither cheap nor do you get a lot for your money.

a) Because it is not really cheaper than better competitors in a comparable price range.

b) Because you don't really get a lot for what you pay.

It would be a good supplementation to better fighters, to fill up some numbers or to replace older fighters, such as the Mig-21, Mirage III, Mirage F-1 (but then again, if you are cash-strapped, can you even afford a large number, and having to supply two types of aircraft, and having to buy more expensive ones to make up for the cheap ones? At the end, the question is: Can you really afford to buy cheap? Because that scenario may turn out to be more expensive and yet less effective/capable than buying a bit more expensive but more capable jets in the first place, like Chile did with the purchase of 48 F-16s), but acquiring it as the main fighter aircraft would be "fatal", especially for small air forces with neighbors which fly much better aircraft. Even today, but even more so in 2020, it would still be like flying Mig-21s or F-5s in the 1990s

My choice would have been three squadrons of J-10 in conjunction with a squadron of gently used Su-27/30 types. This provides two more capable aircraft that use the same engine. As expected, China is now offering its new J-10 jet fighter for export. The price is $30 million, which is less than half what a new F-16I costs, but still more than the Chinese JF-17, which goes for $18+/- million. But there are still hundreds of used F-16s available, for under $15 million each. While the U.S. still has about 1,300 F-16s in service (about half with reserve units), over 4,200 were produced, and America has hundreds in storage. The end of the Cold War in led to a sharp cut in U.S.A. Air Force fighter squadrons. Additionally, the new F-35 will be replacing all U.S.A. F-16s in the next decade. So the U.S. will continue to have plenty of little-used F-16s sitting around, and these remain a cheaper and more effective aircraft than the JF-17, and on par with the J-10. However, since Argentina has effectively cut off the possibility to buy F-16s, then used the J-10s and/or Su-27s would provide a respectable, but more expensive, substitute. A used F-16C, built in the 1990s, would go for about $10 to $15 million on the open market.

A good analysis, but there are some important omissions and slight misconceptions that might change your conclusions if factored into your calculations.

Firstly, serive life is not a simple, universal, objective measure, but is more an estimate that is subjective, and dependent on how the manufacurer/operator defines it. Just like manufaturers can game the system for missile range by having it be fired from high altitude and at high speed, they can also stretch the airframe service life by limiting the number of high G hours. Just for example, the F16Ns the USN used as aggressors did not last anywhere close to 8000 hours because of all the high-G maneuverering they do.

To illustrate the other point, even within the US, the navy and Air Force use different standards to establish service life, one based on fatigue and the other on durability. Not to bore everyone with details, but the jist of it is the USAF assumes cracks exist in all new structures, and use crack growth analysis to determine what the safe life is based on usage. So long as the crack length is within the specifications established during static testing, the airplanes are safe to fly. However, the USN uses a "no crack allowed" rule. If any cracking is detected, the airplane is grounded.

Getting back to the JF17, the 4000 hour service life is currently only an estimate, and without knowing the assumptions underpinning how that 4000 hours was established and how the 8000 hour was established for the F16 and M2K, the two cannot be directly compared to each other.

No matter what the manufactures says, a 1990s F16 is not going to last longer than a 2013 brand new built JF17 even if they both have the same number of estimated hours left in the airframe. And just like a car, the older it is, the more unreliable it gets and the more it needs maintaince and the more that maintenance will cost.

I am not all the familiar with the F16 or M2K, but the F15 for example, was originally designed for 4000 hours, which was later extended to 8000 hours, and the F15E was rated for 16,000 hours. Two points from that, firstly it demonstrates that an estimated service life is just that, an estimate, and that it is perfectly possible to extend the life of the airframe if that was desired. The second point is that different blocks of the same aircraft can have significantly different airframe lives. An F16I might have 8000 hours of service life, but that may not be true for a 1990s F16C.

On a similar note, while an F16I might be on par with a J10, a 1990s F16C is not, and a JF17 would be a good match for a 1990s F16 in terms of performance, and should be more capable in many ways, especially in terms of radar and avionics.

Moving on, purchase price is not the only cost that has to be considered. I forget the exact figures, but an F16 is significantly more expensive to operate per hour than a JF17, spread that across the entire fleet through the life of the aircraft and the cost is significant.

One only have to look at the PAF as an example, they cut their Blk 52 F16 orders significantly after operating the JF17, and they have access to brand new BlK52s that are essentially free since they would have been paid from the Americian military assistance budget.

If the JF17 is good enough for Pakistan, which is facing IAF armed with MKIs and Rafales in the future, it should be good enough for Argentina, and we are only talking in terms of cost and performance.

But there are many other factors to consider for this deal. The ToT would be a massive factor, and the total freedom Argentina would have over the JF17 and and associated weapons should be a game changer for Argentina of all countries.

Are J10s better? Undoubtably, but they are also much more expensive to both buy and operate, and for a country like Argentina that is having all sorts of economic difficulties, that cannot be ignored. In addition, Argentina would get a far better deal in terms of ToT with the JF17 compared to the J10. At the end of the day, performance is only one factor, and the most capable planes are not always the ones chosen.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kwaigonegin and PLAwolf. Those where both excellent analysis and viewpoints!!! After I wrote my previous reply I thought about commenting on the higher maintenance aspects of the F-16 and the fact that you can only get parts from USA. Which in Argentina’s place could be a reason for concern (if the current Argentine administration continuous).

Granted that Argentina may get the technology transfer and the rights to assemble from parts (mostly supplied). As you mentioned, will give the FAA the freedom to not rely on 100% foreign parts providers. The Achilles heel is that it relies on a Russian engine that is more maintenance heavy and has a shorter service life than its western equivalents. However I must also mention that the RD-33 requires less maintenance than the ATAR-9 engines of the Mirage fleet.

I don't think JF-17 is a bad plane capability-wise (I was just hoping for something better that could take on the Chilean F-16s to defend the nation). But I still have some concerns (or questions) surrounding the plane's fatigue endurance and durability. If the plane's components (radar, engines, etc) deteriorate faster than other jets, it will need maintenance and refurbishment more often and that may increase life-cycle cost. Similar concerns have been raised regarding Chinese jets before, though the problem is not as pro-nounced now. I think the total life-cycle cost of JF-17 will be so-so with other comparable jets in decades' perspective. Not much more expensive, but not unusually cheaper either. The point is that we don't know yet which planes truly cost more to maintain and support in the long-term, not just to build and buy them.

I would certainly be interested how the KLJ-7 compares to the AN/APG-67 in combat.

It’s late and I can’t think anymore. I’ll try again tomorrow.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

Here's a few more:

The AT-6B Texan being proposed for the US Light Attack/Armed Recon aircraft (LAAR)


70543046.jpg


I always like the A-37B Dragonfly, and quite a few are still around...and there is an AT-37E STOL concept out there too


a37b.jpg


Boeing's OV-10X Super Bronco


ov-10x-super-bronco.jpg



The Air Tractor AT-802U contestant for the LAAR


AirTractor_Paris_I.jpg


Excellent additions Jeff. I forgot about those. I was hoping that the discussion would evolve into the advantages of a turboprop power aircraft that can take off and land on a dirt airstrip (literally) and can support ground offensives. Also about the advantages of controlling the skies over the battlefield (clearing it of helicopters and other light aircraft).
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft

How about Su-24 and JH-7A?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
I do not believe the SU-24 or JH-7A would meet the guidelines Mirage-Driver set up for the thread:

Miragedriver said:
I’m talking about a dedicated cheap aircraft that can take off from dirt strips; be field maintained, perform recon, attack mission, forward air missions, etc…

Something that can carry 1500kg of small unguided and guided bombs and guided missiles on under wing hard points–this could be air-to-air missiles like AIM-9 Sidewinders...

Neither the SU-24 or JH-7A

- Are cheap.
- Can take off and land from a dirt strip.
- Can be field maintained.

So they would not apply.
 
Top