Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Pointblank said:

Actually, the IMF has censured Argentina (the first time it has done that since 1954, and the second country to be censured by the IMF, the first being Czechoslovakia) for blatantly false inflation and economic growth statistics a few months ago:
With the IMF's censure of Argentina, it could lead to Argentina being kicked out of the IMF, and with Argentine access to international lenders severely restricted, Argentina is going to be facing a very messy default... again.

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The IMF is in many latin americans view an instrument of economic imperialism, in fact , we do need to go into that simple because that is politics, suffice to say only what is the most important is how much food, health and education a nation has, in HDI Argentina is the top 2 in Latin America and one of the best well off nations.


If China and Argentina do business is out of the control of the IMF, and that is the reason probably argentina will buy Russian and Chinese technology, the IMF is a western financial institution, Argentina is vetoed mostly by politics and the 1982 war with England (England holds a great grip on the IMF).

Russia and China are nations which are resisting the IMF pressure, and are calling to create economic alternatives to the Dollar and Euro based IMF financial system.

Argentina can simply pay with Yuan or barter with grains, meat or other comodities without using the IMF never ending and unpayable loans.

Argentina defaulted for a reason, but is rich enough to pay with Yuan or Rubles.

So China and Argentina can find a way to pay those JF-17s easily.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

MiG-29 said:

....Argentina can simply pay with Yuan or barter with grains, meat or other comodities without using the IMF never ending and unpayable loans.

Argentina defaulted for a reason, but is rich enough to pay with Yuan or Rubles.

So China and Argentina can find a way to pay those JF-17s easily.

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If this proposed transaction is simply about profit, then yes, Argentina's fiscal problems would be a deal breaker. But if the transaction serves other purposes, then the deal would make sense. Such as -

1) Expanding the profile and marketability of the JF-17. If executed well, it will help improve the reputation of Chinese arms in the market.

2) Getting Argentina into China's sphere of influence.

3) Gaining non-fiscal concessions for China such as commodities or friendly port/base access?

Slightly off topic, but isn't Pakistan selling the JF-17 to Egypt? So whatever clearance requirements between China and Pakistan must have been long resolved and understanding established.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

joshuatree said:

If this proposed transaction is simply about profit, then yes, Argentina's fiscal problems would be a deal breaker. But if the transaction serves other purposes, then the deal would make sense. Such as -

1) Expanding the profile and marketability of the JF-17. If executed well, it will help improve the reputation of Chinese arms in the market.

2) Getting Argentina into China's sphere of influence.

3) Gaining non-fiscal concessions for China such as commodities or friendly port/base access?

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Very well and succinctly stated. All three could easily be on the table.

These types of concessions/deals/agreements would be worth a lot to China and would make it worth their while to find a way for Argentina to get the fighters...and probably more. I would not be surprised, if something like this gpoes through for the aircraft, to see Argentina also "upgrade" its naval forces in a similar way.

For China to gain such a strategic foothold/base of operations in that part of South America would be a great coup for them. when you add to that the potential for the PRC to have similar arrangements in Venesuela, well, they would be making in roads in a big way.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

joshuatree said:

If this proposed transaction is simply about profit, then yes, Argentina's fiscal problems would be a deal breaker. But if the transaction serves other purposes, then the deal would make sense. Such as -

1) Expanding the profile and marketability of the JF-17. If executed well, it will help improve the reputation of Chinese arms in the market.

2) Getting Argentina into China's sphere of influence.

3) Gaining non-fiscal concessions for China such as commodities or friendly port/base access?

Slightly off topic, but isn't Pakistan selling the JF-17 to Egypt? So whatever clearance requirements between China and Pakistan must have been long resolved and understanding established.

Click to expand...

Argentina is in good Shape, the IMF is a US and England backed financial institution, if you read about UNASUR, you will see that south America is developing an economic Union where a south american bank and south american instiutions in creating a south american united states.

To say Argentina is in the Chinese sphere of influence is irreal.

Brazil set a policy of non dependance upon any global power in South america.

Argentina is doing business, simply like that, if the JF-17 offers the technology at a reasonable price they will get it.

If the JF-17 offers the tech transfers Argentina is wanting, the deal probably will be done.

South america simply is doing business, JF-17 might be payed with beef, grains, comodities, or perhaps business deals.
Argentina and Brazil are the head nations of South america and will try to get the best deals.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Jeff Head said:

Very well and succinctly stated. All three could easily be on the table.

These types of concessions/deals/agreements would be worth a lot to China and would make it worth their while to find a way for Argentina to get the fighters...and probably more. I would not be surprised, if something like this gpoes through for the aircraft, to see Argentina also "upgrade" its naval forces in a similar way.

For China to gain such a strategic foothold/base of operations in that part of South America would be a great coup for them. when you add to that the potential for the PRC to have similar arrangements in Venesuela, well, they would be making in roads in a big way.

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South america today is a different entity it was 40 years ago, they are creating a new economic and political union, they will get technology from whoever gives it on a fair deal.

Brazil set the example, F-X is an example however argentina probably can not choose western aircraft since they might have american or british tech or are fighters from nations friendly to England.

If the US offers the tech they will take it, however the JF-17 has Chinese tech with Russian engine.

Non are nations that will bow to England, if they want they will transfer the tech to Argentina and the IMF and NATO can not do a thing

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

MiG-29 said:

Argentina is in good Shape, the IMF is a US and England backed financial institution, if you read about UNASUR, you will see that south America is developing an economic Union where a south american bank and south american instiutions in creating a south american united states.

To say Argentina is in the Chinese sphere of influence is irreal.

Brazil set a policy of non dependance upon any global power in South america.

Argentina is doing business, simply like that, if the JF-17 offers the technology at a reasonable price they will get it.

If the JF-17 offers the tech transfers Argentina is wanting, the deal probably will be done.

South america simply is doing business, JF-17 might be payed with beef, grains, comodities, or perhaps business deals.
Argentina and Brazil are the head nations of South america and will try to get the best deals.

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Irreal? I'm not understanding that word. Or do you mean unreal? If so, I don't see why not. When I say sphere of influence, I don't mean in any form of imperialism but simply being on good terms that foster closer partnerships and alliances. As opposed to being anti-China.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

joshuatree said:

Irreal? I'm not understanding that word. Or do you mean unreal? If so, I don't see why not. When I say sphere of influence, I don't mean in any form of imperialism but simply being on good terms that foster closer partnerships and alliances. As opposed to being anti-China.

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Let me explain you.

Brazil has set a group of policies in South america.

For example, they have Embraer factories both in China and the US, Ukraine is involved in the Brazilian space program while France in the submarine program.


Traditionally up to the mid XX th century, Latin america was getting most of its technology and immigrants from Western Europe and the US was its main military vendor.
By 1960 this changed with Cuba, when they got Migs, later Peru followed that trend and by 1995 even Mexico was buying Russian.

Today you can see Some Chinese aircraft in South America.

There are some nations still buying US weapons, but the reality is, Brazil set a policy of non dependance.

China can be an ally, can be treated equally as Europe or the USA in South America, however UNASUR has as a policy of non dependance, it means any nation benefiting South america will have deals with UNASUR.

If China helps FADEA`s technological base, the contract will be signed.

I doubt Argentina will go for just assembling, they could if they really need those aircraft, but i doubt it simply because they got A-4s from the US.

Argentina has an arms embargo by England in Europe and the US.

So only crap they will buy from any NATO nation, that has moved them too China.

However in the case of Brazil, they never go extreme like Chavez did or Castro did.

Argentina could go a little bit left if their national interests so demand.

In the Brazilian mind set, If France gives you a nuclear submarine tech transfer, they sign the deal, if Ukraine helps with the cyclone satellite launchers fr the brazilian space program, they sign the deal, if the US offers a better transfer than France they will skip Rafale and they will buy Boeing.

Russia offered recently full tect transfer for Su-35 to Brazil

So see that trend and you will understand why China has sold weapons in South America

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

If Argentina financial is healthy, they wouldn't even look at JF-17 in the first place...

Obviously, this move is out of desperation.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Lion said:

If Argentina financial is healthy, they wouldn't even look at JF-17 in the first place...

Obviously, this move is out of desperation.

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Not accurate, Argentina is the 44th best country to live in the world, Argentina is part of the G-20, So basicly Argentina is a very developed country, why? simply Argentina is an agricultural power and too some degree an important industrial nation, however after 1982 and the re-alignment of most of traditional allies of Argentina in Europe with England such as Italy or Spain, and the US policy of only sell F-5s to Latin America or low rated aircraft.

Argentina can realistically only buy Chinese or Russian.

Gripen is out of the question, Eurofighter too, F-18s? perhaps very old ones buy unlikely Rafale? out of the question.

So FADEA which is basicly an aircraft factory and designed in the 1990s even jet aircraft, needs to update its technology.

FADEA once belonged to Lockheed, during the Mennen days, however the company was idle, this was saw by the Kitchners as an attempt of the US to destroy the aircraft industry in Argentina.

However today`s programs are Pampa and KC-390.

Argentina needs to re-activate its aircraft programs, and to some degree the JF-17 tech transfers could do it.

While giving the ability of making a light fighter

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

MiG-29 said:

Argentina is in good Shape, the IMF is a US and England backed financial institution, if you read about UNASUR, you will see that south America is developing an economic Union where a south american bank and south american instiutions in creating a south american united states.

To say Argentina is in the Chinese sphere of influence is irreal.

Brazil set a policy of non dependance upon any global power in South america.

Argentina is doing business, simply like that, if the JF-17 offers the technology at a reasonable price they will get it.

If the JF-17 offers the tech transfers Argentina is wanting, the deal probably will be done.

South america simply is doing business, JF-17 might be payed with beef, grains, comodities, or perhaps business deals.
Argentina and Brazil are the head nations of South america and will try to get the best deals.

Click to expand...

As China's economy continue to improve and millions of it's population move from poor to middle class, beef consumption will invariable go up as well. That is a fact!
Since Brazil and Argentina are big beef exporters it make economic sense.
Heck China can trade FC-17s for nothing but just beef and it would still make sense. It'll be win win for everyone!
Argentina gets much needed new fighters and Chinese gets to enjoy more steak and beef and brocolli.