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Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

OT
Brazil can get advice from the South Korea, India and Russia, even the US and France, but by the time it starts to design its first carrier it might also welcome advice from China especially it that concern EM cats.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Brazil is the the only carrier aviation teacher China has and both are likely to continue cooperating as close as the pair India and Russia. China is intent on building their own carrier and Brazil will be included in the overall drive for maritime power projection because it has the most important South Atlantic fleet other than the USA, helping to secure the Chinese sea lines of communication with much of Africa's rich Western coasts.
Current Brazilian carrier role is shifting from sea control to carrier strike role, but whether Argentina can operate the size that fits Brazil is an interesting issue. Both countries face little threats from land and can focus their military power seawards.

Now come politics and money, the Argentine political establishment took over from a junta that did not succeed in two wars of aggression, with Chile(mutual aggression) and the UK. Ever since, the elected politicians have been shrinking the military budget in order to break that powerbase. The less money there is, the less attraction this job can offer and the lower is the economic and political connection value of the military elite. This downsizing will take as long as a perceived junta threat persists. Afterwards, there will be constructive military investments again. As there's not much else to buy than maritime power projection and ever since transferring the carrier catapult good vibes with Brazil exist, Argentina will have an option to join into Brazil's naval programs. Unlike Argentina, Brazil already got rid of the haunting ghosts of their previous junta era and expands her armed forces to secure the rich Blue Amazonas.
You might notice that the GDP spent on military stuff in Argentina is about 1% of GDP and currently 10% of Brazilian spending that has a much higher spending in GDP and per capita. By contrast Chile has more than twice the the budget of Argentina and more than 3 times the % of GDP spending. If Argentina decides to catch up with their neighbours they could achieve on current figures a level of 10 billion$ yearly military expenditure instead of 3 billion$ now. I don't know if this money is more wisely spent on military stuff as the intent with the hardware is to improve the negotiation capability over resources in the South Atlantic. This resources can mean a windfall in income for a state, take as an example Russia, and help to create conditions of Norwegian wealth or another economic (linked to wiki, for all those who don't know economics). Argentina is already resource rich and in many ways they do still fight their Dutch disease.

Capability for high wingloading is not helpful if aircraft range is limited because external fuel tanks will be standard equipment. Eurofighter had a nice showcase article highlighting how they had to operate with external tanks over Libya and still were "so agile".
Kinetic energy increases with the square of speed. A speed reduction by 10 or 20% roughly brings a theoretical range increase by 25-50% due to less energy output requirement per distance covered. Actual figures will differ. The problem is that aircrafts have been designed for a optimum lowest resistance speed-frame between subsonic drag and hypersonic impact airflow. Less or more speed than the optimized frame will result in increased energy demands due to increasingly higher airframe resistance. To adjust crusing speed and operational range, you have to move this whole speed frame to a new optimum by redesigning the shape of the aircraft.
Old interceptor concepts were fast with a low bypass ratio and very wet thrust, while modern engines move in the opposite direction with higher bypass and more dry thrust for lower air speed, including sometimes lower stall speeds. It's a shift from sprinters to medium distance runners and Argentina is among the least likely countries with suitable applications for the sprinters of old because of very long distances and very low force density. I might be wrong, take a look at the Soviet and Russian aircrafts operating in Jakutsk.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Your knowledge of the remaining bastions of the Junta in Argentina are on the money. Not too many people outside the nation understand the tension between the political cast and the military cast. A smaller element of society still sees the military (lead by the army) as the saviors of the Republic that will intervene of any political situation gets out of hand. Then there is the Political element that engages in constant political necrophilia with Peron. If that is indeed the case that the political are waiting out the last of the junta supports, we may have to wait another twenty years to see any progress in the acquisition of new armaments. Any interesting twist to all this is that the Air Force has always been more respected in Argentine society of the three branches of the military. I may be that they are a newer branch and that they were not as involved as the Army and Navy in governmental overthrows.
Brasil is entering a new chapter with the discovery of petroleum in the amazon basin and delta. The maritime power projection to protect is economic and strategic assets are casing a surge in construction of not only submarines and surface ship, but also maritime patrol aircraft. Brasil may become like France, requiring a two carrier navy mainly to ensure that at least one ship is operational at all times even if the other is under repair, or in port.
Getting back to the Mig-29 and the modifications we discussed. It seems as if many of the changes are being incorporated into the Indian Mig-29K. They include lightening and strengthening the airframe, beefing up the undercarriage, the airframe now utilizes around 15% composite materials, and incorporates conformal fuel tanks. All which reduce the overall radar signature. There are other numerous modifications but the two which I find very interesting are the RD-33MK engines equipped with smokeless combustion chamber and new full authority digital engine control system and the incorporation of the Kh-31A supersonic anti-ship missile system.


when I think of ex-Soviet and Russian aircrafts operating in Jakutsk, all that comes to mind is the Su-15 and Mig-23 but I don't think that's what you are eluding to

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Jakustk poses a similar problem as Argentina in terms of force density and logistics. A short range interceptor was always pointless to station there except slightly more east in order to play with the USA over the Bering Street.
The political class of Argentina is waiting out the junta powerbase and starved the Argentine military to levels that Chile can threaten an invasion. That's a pretty clear hint that their wargames of old for popular support are no longer valid applications. Why Chile and Brazil have more military investments is an interesting topic. It possibly has to do with Argentina going for a biological solution of the ghosts of the past by politicians and generals becoming so senile that things are safe.
Looking at things from this perspective, it might be a good choice to just buy the best trainer aircraft on the market and weaponize it as there will be as limited funds as possible for both acquisition and maintenance. The benefit would be to maximise training and proficiency of the forces in order to operate with better stuff another day (look at the 100,000 men Reichswehr). Operational costs of most Russian systems are usually high and I have no idea how to reliably check all kinds of systems for these informations.
Contrary to other statements, Argentina could operate a sea control carrier, even two, but not a major seabased strike carrier, if they were intent on beefing up their military. The deeper problem is that the intent of increased armament is a resource exploitation claim that would help to keep the old addicted mentality which causes the Dutch disease and limits the human development of this once wealthy country.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver's remark about the airforce being more respected and that army and navy were more concerned in governmental overthrows suggest to me that buying aircraft carriers should be delayed or - if it can be done - held out as a bribe to the navy to get rid of the old and politically dangerous officers.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

delft said:

Miragedriver's remark about the airforce being more respected and that army and navy were more concerned in governmental overthrows suggest to me that buying aircraft carriers should be delayed or - if it can be done - held out as a bribe to the navy to get rid of the old and politically dangerous officers.

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Excellent idea! However I still feel that submarines are the way to. I don’t think I have Dutch syndrome, maybe I’ve just seen too many documentaries with Admr. Dorniz

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt said:

Jakustk poses a similar problem as Argentina in terms of force density and logistics. A short range interceptor was always pointless to station there except slightly more east in order to play with the USA over the Bering Street.
The political class of Argentina is waiting out the junta powerbase and starved the Argentine military to levels that Chile can threaten an invasion. That's a pretty clear hint that their wargames of old for popular support are no longer valid applications. Why Chile and Brazil have more military investments is an interesting topic. It possibly has to do with Argentina going for a biological solution of the ghosts of the past by politicians and generals becoming so senile that things are safe.
Looking at things from this perspective, it might be a good choice to just buy the best trainer aircraft on the market and weaponize it as there will be as limited funds as possible for both acquisition and maintenance. The benefit would be to maximise training and proficiency of the forces in order to operate with better stuff another day (look at the 100,000 men Reichswehr). Operational costs of most Russian systems are usually high and I have no idea how to reliably check all kinds of systems for these informations.
Contrary to other statements, Argentina could operate a sea control carrier, even two, but not a major seabased strike carrier, if they were intent on beefing up their military. The deeper problem is that the intent of increased armament is a resource exploitation claim that would help to keep the old addicted mentality which causes the Dutch disease and limits the human development of this once wealthy country.

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What is interesting to note is that as the military has gotten smaller it has also gotten more professional. They have had to make with the little good equipment they have left. This is also occurring in the air force. The main reason why the government has authorized the construction of 40 is to replace the Mirage III/V/Neshers which are now of no military value, and are a drain on the operating budget of the FAA. These aircraft are to be placeholders until a replacement can be found. Apparently the plan in to replace the 35+/- mirage types with the 40 Pampa Phase II. Granted that they little planes are inexpensive to run and maintain. They will provide the FAA with more fight time, but at the cost of not having a real air force. There has been some talk of resurrecting the SAIA-90 project, but given all the problems in the government I do not see this as being likelihood. That’s is why I see the only option for the FAA is to acquire the Mig-29s, or (wishful thinking) make a deal with China for the J-31. Maybe with cash, beef, wheat and oil.
Back to you other question, which was why is Chile have such a large military. The question can be answered in that they are smarter. They know that there will be some type of military action necessary to (or negotiate from a position of strength) over the territorial claims of the Antarctic. Secondly if there were a military crisis with Argentina, that Peru and possible Bolivia would be potential adversaries. Peru and Bolivia would like to regain their lost territory. Chile knows that it could be fighting a multi-front war and are planning accordingly

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

The recommendations that you presented where along the line of what I was thinking, concerning upgrades. The J-10 has less of a combat radius, ferry range and thrust to weight ratio. The J-10 does however have a better wing loading, which is indicative of agility. Although it is wishful thinking I don’t see the Chinese selling some of their first production batch.
Unfortunately there are not to many alternatives available that are “off the shelf” existing aircraft available on the used market. Really what is available in the market?

1) JAS-39 Gripen, South Africa replaced its entire Mirage fleet with the JAS-39. Very nice aircraft, but it has British Avionics/Radar, and they own an interest in Saab so that eliminates the JAS-39 from the picture

2) The Mig-29 seems to be the best option thus far as to a used aircraft with low hours that can be modified to meet the requirements of the FAA.

3) The Su-27/30 would be the preferred option. However it is a large and complicated aircraft, and if the Mig-29 is already at the high end of operation cost then this really places the SU-27 types out of the realm of possibilities.

4) I’ve always had a soft spot for the F-18 and I believe as mentioned before the requirements of the FAA are very similar to those of Canada. The FAA has also preferred (when purchasing aircraft from the US) to obtain naval aircraft. This is because of their robust nature and overall reliability. In order to obtain F-18s Argentina would need to continue its UN involvement, tow the line in US foreign policy and negotiate any disputes. However, if Argentine “towed the line” if could help make the USA a broker in any Antarctic disputes. Conversely there is no guaranty that the results of such a brokerage would be favorable.

5) The F-16 was rejected because of runway debris (an unlikely story). Since the same excuse could be used for the J-10, and there is no problem with runway debris

6) The Rafale was rejected because there would be no technology transfer and it’s too expensive.

7) The J-10 could be an option if China were to sell the first batch of used aircraft

8) The Spanish Mirage F-1’s were rejected because of the airframe fatigue. This was intended as an interim solution to buy some more time to find a real replacement.

9) The Jordanian Mirage F-1’s (that deal has been dragged out way too long and is now DOA).

10) Which leaves us with the Mirage 2000, but nobody will sell them since they’re still useful.

11) am I missing one?

Getting back to the Mig-29.One reason the many reasons why the IA-63 was placed back in production was to retain the skilled personnel that are employed by

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and to provide the Air Force and aircraft that the pilots can fly which is inexpensive and fill the gap of flight hours.
With all the experience the FadeA personnel and FAA personnel have maintaining the fleet of “museum vintage” Mirage III types flying, maybe they should consider acquiring the Atlas Carver plans from South Africa. And developing this in conjunction with Brasil (since Brasil has still not moved forward with its fighter selection). This would help reduce design time, introduction time and acquisition costs.

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Arturo Puricelli, Argentina's defense minister, has told the Global Times that his government of Argentina supports China's territorial claims in the South China Sea. Puricelli spoke to the nationalistic tabloid, a title published by the Chinese Communist Party mouthpiece People's Daily, during a six-day visit to China.

Puricelli said China is considered an important economic, political and military partner by the government of Argentina and it is the policy of Buenos Aires to oppose any intervention from a third party in disputes concerning the South China Sea. His words are considered a response to the support expressed last week by the Chinese premier, Wen Jiaobao, for the Argentine claim to the Falkland islands, known as the Malvinas in Argentina, during his visit to the country last week.

The minister said several contracts were signed during his meeting with Guo Boxiong, vice chairman of the Central Military Commission and Liang Guanglie, the Chinese defense minister, on military cooperation. China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation and China North Industries Corp have also agreed to provide technical support for the development of CZ-11 helicopters. Puricelli also said Argentina is interested in purchasing the J-20, China's fifth-generation stealth fighter, which is still in its development phase.To face the challenge of Britain's Royal Navy over the Falklands, Puricelli also said Argentina's navy will need to import advanced combat ships as he inspected a flotilla of PLA Navy ships in Shanghai.

China claims the islands and reefs of the South China Sea as the country's territory, though Beijing faces competing claims from Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia and Brunei. The maritime region is believed to contain rich resources of oil and gas.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I disappoint that I didn’t hear about this in the newspaper or the television media and that playing favorites and taking sides. This definitely places Argentina in the “no used US weapon systems box”. Well at least there many be the possibility of acquiring the J-20. However the most likely scenario will be a squadron of J-31 (if we’re lucking and a bunch of used J-7s.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The Saab JAS-39 Gripen named after the mythical Griffin is a Swedish designed and developed fighter that is competing for varius contracts around the world perhabs Argentina can look into this plane. Easy to maintain and use, but the problem is that it has a lot of foreign components in it. Including a lot of British ones that could be a problem for Argentina. Anyway here is a cutaway drawing of the Gripen that shows you where all the components come from.