London Summer Olympics 2012

Mr T · Aug 7, 2012

plawolf said:
So much for any pretence at objectivity from you. Anyone who turns the rules of the game on it's head clearly has an agenda he wished to pursue.

But you are assuming that the officials did not have access to footage that showed the Chinese riders did break the rules.

Your absurd claim about officials not needing to justify themselves to the public is also nonsensical. This is not some private deal between companies or countries. It's a sporting event. Officials have to justify their decisions

Yet funnily enough in sport, officials do not always justify their decisions. In fact, I would say it's fairly rare for officials to comment on a decision after they have made it. I assume this is because they want to retain their independence and do not want to be sucked into a public argument every 5 minutes.

Why should that matter? Is the word of the Chinese national coach not good enough for you?

If only one party to a dispute has been quoted, I am reluctant to give them my full backing.

Did the officials point-blank refuse to look at the replays?

Difficult to say. But the "appeal" seemed to gain little or no traction at the start.

For the Chinese pair, there have thus far not been any conclusive evidence shown, which is unexpected all by itself, and if the decision was made based on the very blurry and unclear video and images shown

Why would the officials have access to clear footage for the British riders but only blurry footage for the Chinese riders? The same equipment would have been used for both cases. It's much more likely that they could see both clearly.

As for the BBC sport video, I think officials have access to something slightly more sophisticated than asking a broadcaster to replay their TV footage. And I'm hardly surprised that the BBC would not try to get crystal clear images themselves, as the vast majority of BBC viewers wouldn't have cared either way what happened. Surprisingly enough we cared about what happened to our athletes, so the BBC spent a lot of time over it - and it was a significant news story in its own right. Maybe you should write to the BBC and ask them why they didn't show the clear images they did with the British girls?

The fact that the Chinese national coach was incensed enough to publicly voice his frustration should also be an indication of just how flimsy the case was to relegate the Chinese pair.

Why - because Chinese coaches never lose their temper? Come on, Chinese people are known for getting angry like anyone else.

If you had known much about the basics of the race or seen the match live or any of the clips up online since, you would realise that the cyclists were traveling so fast not even the judges would have been able to see anything.

That is ridiculous. The Chinese girls were not riding at supersonic speeds, they were riding at perfectly normal speeds that the equipment could have slowed down. They were able to tell the British girls broke the rules, so I'm sure they could have done the same with the Chinese girls.

the Chinese coach would not have made such a big deal so publicly if he had no case.

Maybe. Or perhaps he was worried he'd get disciplined because his girls made a mistake that they shouldn't have, so he tried to deflect attention by claiming "we woz wobbed". I would go for something in between. Coaches protest all the time, usually because they think they have a case. The Chinese coach may have thought he had a case - didn't mean he did.

Quickie · Aug 7, 2012

Mr T said:
Have you seen a single clear-cut image that they handed off within the rules? If it isn't possible to identify from the footage either way what happened, no one can say that they were robbed. Officials take decisions, they don't submit their findings to the general public to certify them as being correct.

Did the officials confirm that was the case, or is that the statement of the Chinese coaches? In any event, I recall that the head of UK cycling equally pleaded with the officials after the British women won their semi-final, but his complaints fell on deaf ears as well. I should stress the deaf ears bit, because I recall the BBC commentators saying that it looked bad by the expressions of the officials when the coach was trying to argue it with them.

I was not being completely serious when I said the British girls would have definitely won. The point is that the competitors in the final would have been different, so it's not possible to say who would have won.

As I said earlier, the home team fell foul of these rules, not just the Chinese team. The British change-over was so close that only the judges could have seen it, and I was not aware of any other country lodging a protest with the judges. If they were so biased that they would disqualify the Chinese for something they didn't do, why on earth did they not favour the home tean amd just not pretend they hadn't seen it? Would anyone else have noticed? It's not like they were equipped with time machines and knew that they might have the opportunity to disqualify the Chinese in the final.

As for the Chinese, it makes no sense for the officials to knowingly disqualify them for something they didn't do in the final, when they could have done that at any stage of the competition. And why would they take away a gold medal from China only to favour a random country like Germany? Does Germany have that much clout in the IOC?

And if there is an Olympic conspiracy to deprive China of medals, why is China currently toping the medals table? China could easily have been deprived of medals in any sports that involve judge-based ratings - that includes gymnastics, diving and fencing. That's 10 gold medals there that could easily have been explained away.

I think this is a case of people explaining away disappointment. Like the French somehow alleging that our cyclists are cheating because our wheels are kept in plastic bags (or something), despite the fact that the wheels are made by a French company.

You're trying to complicate things by talking about the what-if scenario if the British team was not disqualified. Whereas we're talking about something that have already happened. i.e. the fairness of the disqualifying decision against the Chinese team. What makes you think they have to be related? Whether the British team was justifiably disqualify or not, has nothing to do with the case of the Chinese team disqualification.

Mr T · Aug 7, 2012

A Chinese girl won gold on the beam a little while ago. Is someone going to complain about that and say she was robbed of a world record or something?

Quickie said:
You're trying to complicate things by talking about the what-if scenario if the British team was not disqualified. Whereas we're talking about something that have already happened. i.e. the fairness of the disqualifying decision against the Chinese team. What makes you think they have to be related? Whether the British team was justifiably disqualify or not, has nothing to do with the case of the Chinese team disqualification.

1. My point was that they were disqualified for the same reason. It's not like the Chinese girls were disqualified for something that another team had got away with.

2. If the judges deliberately disqualified the Chinese team when they knew they did nothing wrong, why didn't they abuse their powers to look the other way with the British team? Because that seems to be exactly what J-XX was alleging, that it was a deliberate act.

I'm happy with people saying that the judges may have made a mistake, but it would help if they could actually show something that indicates the Chinese girls didn't break the rules. The way sport works is as follows:

1. Athletes do their thing.
2. Officials monitor.
3. Officials decide whether or not to intevene/issues infringements.
4. Coaches/teams can protest.
5. Officials amend their earlier decision or refuse to change it.

There is no point 6, "officials make press conference to explain decision because of public complaints". I'm not ruling out the possibility that it happens sometimes, but there have been other complaints so far about judging. Like the South Korean fencer who thought she'd got through to a fencing gold medal match, only have the clock reset to 1 second (and then lost the match in that last second). Did the judges make a public statement about that? Not to my knowledge. Have officials held a press conference at these Olympics for any judging decision taken that has been disputed?

Guys, I'll let you have the last word on this. If you feel that the Chinese girls should have got a gold medal - despite the fact that you don't actually know if the change over was good or not - fine. But I take the position that I'm not going to suspect the officials of making a bad call if no one has access to footage or images that shows they did make a mistake. As far as I am aware, it is quite normal for officials to take a decision and then stick with it. If you want to continue the conversation, you can always PM me.

Mr T · Aug 7, 2012

Great Britain now have 20 gold medals, thanks to victory in the team dressage. Better than Beijing!

Quickie · Aug 7, 2012

Mr T said:
A Chinese girl won gold on the beam a little while ago. Is someone going to complain about that and say she was robbed of a world record or something?

1. My point was that they were disqualified for the same reason. It's not like the Chinese girls were disqualified for something that another team had got away with.

2. If the judges deliberately disqualified the Chinese team when they knew they did nothing wrong, why didn't they abuse their powers to look the other way with the British team? Because that seems to be exactly what J-XX was alleging, that it was a deliberate act.

I'm happy with people saying that the judges may have made a mistake, but it would help if they could actually show something that indicates the Chinese girls didn't break the rules. The way sport works is as follows:

1. Athletes do their thing.
2. Officials monitor.
3. Officials decide whether or not to intevene/issues infringements.
4. Coaches/teams can protest.
5. Officials amend their earlier decision or refuse to change it.

There is no point 6, "officials make press conference to explain decision because of public complaints". I'm not ruling out the possibility that it happens sometimes, but there have been other complaints so far about judging. Like the South Korean fencer who thought she'd got through to a fencing gold medal match, only have the clock reset to 1 second (and then lost the match in that last second). Did the judges make a public statement about that? Not to my knowledge. Have officials held a press conference at these Olympics for any judging decision taken that has been disputed?

Guys, I'll let you have the last word on this. If you feel that the Chinese girls should have got a gold medal - despite the fact that you don't actually know if the change over was good or not - fine. But I take the position that I'm not going to suspect the officials of making a bad call if no one has access to footage or images that shows they did make a mistake. As far as I am aware, it is quite normal for officials to take a decision and then stick with it. If you want to continue the conversation, you can always PM me.

There should be an additional point before no. 5 :

Review of the video with the complainants.

I gather from news reports this is the main complaint of the Chinese and their coach. You have to wonder why the judges outright refuse to do so.

The judges in other events do this quite as a matter of routine.

Mr T · Aug 7, 2012

Victoria Pendleton won the first race in the women's sprint. She was then relegated because the judges said she had moved out of her line. The GB team coach protested - supposedly Anna Mears had hit Pendleton, causing her to move. Judges ignored him. Mears won the second race.

I suppose this is another example of the cycling judges' bias?

vesicles · Aug 7, 2012

I don't see anything wrong with complaining about unfair judging. I mean who doesn't complain. When was the last time you watch a professional sports game without hearing players and coaches complaining about officiating? probably never. It's part of the game. And it's all the complaining that's making the game more and more fair and open. NBA just made the video playback part of its game-time officiating. NFL also has it. So how come, all of a sudden, it becomes a bad thing when the Chinese complain? They should be entitled to say how they feel about the game, like any player and coach of any sport.

About officials doesn't have to justify their decisions. They may not have to do it to the public, but they do have people judging their officiating skills. So they have to explain their decisions to these people. The more confusing decisions an official makes at a game, the more badly the game looks to the public since every kind of competition at all levels strives to treat all parties equally. A clean image is absolutely essential to any sport, That's why doping is punished so severely. Biased officiating has an equal effect.

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Obviously, the Canadians felt that the officiating was biased and the official was against them and wanted them to lose. So if the Canadians are allowed to complain about officiating, Chinese should be allowed to do the same.

the more complaining they do, the more unbiased the game will be to everybody.

cn_habs · Aug 7, 2012

Mr T said:
Victoria Pendleton won the first race in the women's sprint. She was then relegated because the judges said she had moved out of her line. The GB team coach protested - supposedly Anna Mears had hit Pendleton, causing her to move. Judges ignored him. Mears won the second race.

I suppose this is another example of the cycling judges' bias?

History has shown that host countries tend to do better than usual in the Olympics. I doubt China is gonna for a repeat in number of gold medals in London and the same thing will most likely happen to the Brits in 4 years.

Mr T · Aug 7, 2012

vesicles said:
I don't see anything wrong with complaining about unfair judging.

Ah, but are we complaining about judges making mistakes or being biased? There is a difference. I have seen a raft of countries complaining about decisions in different sports. I don't see particular countries being particularly favoured or punished at these games. The word "unfair" makes it sound like the rules only apply to some people. If judges make an honest mistake, they're trying to apply the rules fairly, i.e. in all cases.

the more complaining they do, the more unbiased the game will be to everybody

Not necessarily. If judges constantly have their decisions second-guessed, they may lose confidence in being able to use their authority effectively. In that case, some may chicken out of taking tough (but fair) decisions or simply give in to whoever shouts the loudest. You can question a judge's decision, but if they don't change their view sometimes you have to accept it. Exploding in the media isn't constructive.

Conversely, too many complaints can sometimes make officials more resistant and turn down appeals more quickly, because they think it's yet another case of people whining.

Either way, complaining too often can have negative consequences.

solarz · Aug 7, 2012

China is surging ahead today with 34 gold and 73 medals overall against the 30 gold and 66 medals of the US.

London Summer Olympics 2012

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