London Summer Olympics 2012

Status
Not open for further replies.

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Interesting I was watching track and field last night and there was a guy from Great Britain up against Usain Bolt in a preliminary. Apparently he was just reinstated after being banned for doping. Yeah the guy didn't qualify for the final but then all those Chinese swimmers that were caught doping that were noted by others as evidence of cheating in here didn't get into the Olympics. So should evidence that this guy definitely cheated taint this miraculous bump in medal wins for Great Britain in these games?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by J-XX

Chinese people all over the world support China. I am no different. We means Chinese people. Chinese people are all over the world doing jobs or studying. We will support China no matter what.


And..

The word "support" can have many definitions. You can support China by cheering them in the Olympics or you can support China by spying for her, but I think most oversea Chinese would support China morally, I don't think they will harm the country they live in to benefit China.

Thank you both for your response. I fully understand.

jackliu & J-XX you should check out this thread..

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/general-pictures/chinese-daily-photos-videos-news-2012-a-5848.html
 
Last edited:

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Did you see 4 gold medals already were robbed from china. 2 from gymnastics, 1 from trampoline and 1 from cycling. All western judges discriminating against china, in the gymnastics and trampoline we were clearly the best, but judges awarded gold to undeserving people.

The judges must hate china so much. That was outrageous judging, blatant cheating. We were robbed.

@JXX perhaps it would be better to not have any competition that requires subjective marking.

In what way was he robbed.?
I assume you are referring to Chen's performance on the rings. I dont think its surprising that Zanetti beat Chen as his performance was equally good. Perhaps Chen was unlucky to be the first contestant when the judges are wary to give too high a mark. Zanetti gave a excellent routine and his performance would still be fresh in the judges minds while Chen's had faded. Anyway Im sure Chen has had plenty of 50/50 calls that had gone his way, this just wasn't one of them.

As for for the Kexin He on the uneven bars , I would say she was fortunate to hold onto second place.I never watched the trampoline so I cant comment.

Did you watch the sailing. It was fantastic , she made our commentators eat their words when they said she wasntly likely to win in these conditions. and that she was doing things wrong when she was the only one to tacked off to the right to search for new wind.3x she did it and it paid off. She must have better wind forcasters as part of her shore crew.
 

J-XX

Banned Idiot
@JXX perhaps it would be better to not have any competition that requires subjective marking.

In what way was he robbed.?
I assume you are referring to Chen's performance on the rings. I dont think its surprising that Zanetti beat Chen as his performance was equally good. Perhaps Chen was unlucky to be the first contestant when the judges are wary to give too high a mark. Zanetti gave a excellent routine and his performance would still be fresh in the judges minds while Chen's had faded. Anyway Im sure Chen has had plenty of 50/50 calls that had gone his way, this just wasn't one of them.

As for for the Kexin He on the uneven bars , I would say she was fortunate to hold onto second place.I never watched the trampoline so I cant comment.

Did you watch the sailing. It was fantastic , she made our commentators eat their words when they said she wasntly likely to win in these conditions. and that she was doing things wrong when she was the only one to tacked off to the right to search for new wind.3x she did it and it paid off. She must have better wind forcasters as part of her shore crew.

Im no gymnastics expert, so i will accept your view. Ok I will accept Kexin He didn't deserve gold. That still leaves 3 golds that we were robbed. Chen Yibing in gymnastics, cycling gold and trampoline. I haven't heard much complain in the trampoline so I will accept that we were beat by a better athlete.

But I refuse to accept Chen Yibing and cycling silver medals, we won gold in both of those. Our gold tally should be 33 if we add those 2 gold medals. I just want fair judging, is that too much to ask?
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Interesting I was watching track and field last night and there was a guy from Great Britain up against Usain Bolt in a preliminary. Apparently he was just reinstated after being banned for doping.

I guess you're talking about Dwain Chambers.

Chambers was not "reinstated". He served the standard two year ban imposed by the IAAF/IOC/whoever. UK athletics actually had banned him for life originally, as they had previously done with other cheats, but their lifetime bans on drug cheats were ruled illegal by the Court of Arbitration for Sport earlier this year. So Chambers had the right to try to qualify, which he did.

So should evidence that this guy definitely cheated taint this miraculous bump in medal wins for Great Britain in these games?

No, because he took drugs individually. There is no evidence that the sprinting team, let alone all the British track & field athletes, were doping or that there was a team doping programme. That's the difference.

But I refuse to accept Chen Yibing and cycling silver medals, we won gold in both of those.

When were you robbed of a cycling gold medal? If you're talking about the women's team ride, they were disqualified for the same reason that the British riders had been in the semi-finals. I could argue that if the rules had been applied more flexibly to let China win the final, Britain would have got through to the final and actually beat China. So you got what you deserved and actually we were "robbed" of gold.

Or we could accept that rules have to be followed. I believe teams were also disqualified for the same reason in the world championships/world cup.

I just want fair judging, is that too much to ask?

Everyone wants fair judging, but if there is a dispute between two countries only one can win the argument. Inevitably one country will then say that the judging was not fair.
 
Last edited:

plawolf

Lieutenant General
When were you robbed of a cycling gold medal? If you're talking about the women's team ride, they were disqualified for the same reason that the British riders had been in the semi-finals. I could argue that if the rules had been applied more flexibly to let China win the final, Britain would have got through to the final and actually beat China. So you got what you deserved and actually we were "robbed" of gold.

Or we could accept that rules have to be followed. I believe teams were also disqualified for the same reason in the world championships/world cup.

The dispute with that decision is that I have yet to see a single clear-cut picture that proves that the Chinese pair did hand off illegally. The images shown during broadcast were poor and unconvincing. That is in stark contrast to the crystal-clear images from the same venue that showed the British pair had handed off illegally without a shadow of a doubt.

The manner in which the Olympic officials then went on to point-blank refuse to take a look at the replays after the Chinese coach disputed the decision and wanted the officials to look at the footage he had was highly unprofessional and unusual.

If the Chinese pair had handed off illegally, fair's fair, but the evidence presented thus far and the attitude and behavior of the Olympic officials who made the call to relegate them was unconvincing to put it politely.
 

Quickie

Colonel
I could argue that if the rules had been applied more flexibly to let China win the final, Britain would have got through to the final and actually beat China.

The first part of this sentence (China wins the final) is a certainty.

The second part of the sentence (Britain would have got through to the final) is an unknown as the Britain cyclists have still to prove themselves.


The fact that the Chinese cyclists have recorded the fastest ever time in qualifying should say something to the judges for them to have a relook on the decision to disqualify.



Edit:

I read that Gong Jinjie and Guo Shuang actually broke the Track Cycling Team Sprint world record in qualifying.
 
Last edited:

Mr T

Senior Member
The dispute with that decision is that I have yet to see a single clear-cut picture that proves that the Chinese pair did hand off illegally.

Have you seen a single clear-cut image that they handed off within the rules? If it isn't possible to identify from the footage either way what happened, no one can say that they were robbed. Officials take decisions, they don't submit their findings to the general public to certify them as being correct.

The manner in which the Olympic officials then went on to point-blank refuse to take a look at the replays after the Chinese coach disputed the decision and wanted the officials to look at the footage he had was highly unprofessional and unusual.

Did the officials confirm that was the case, or is that the statement of the Chinese coaches? In any event, I recall that the head of UK cycling equally pleaded with the officials after the British women won their semi-final, but his complaints fell on deaf ears as well. I should stress the deaf ears bit, because I recall the BBC commentators saying that it looked bad by the expressions of the officials when the coach was trying to argue it with them.

The first part of this sentence (China wins the final) is a certainty.

The second part of the sentence (Britain would have got through to the final) is an unknown as the Britain cyclists have still to prove themselves.

I was not being completely serious when I said the British girls would have definitely won. The point is that the competitors in the final would have been different, so it's not possible to say who would have won.

As I said earlier, the home team fell foul of these rules, not just the Chinese team. The British change-over was so close that only the judges could have seen it, and I was not aware of any other country lodging a protest with the judges. If they were so biased that they would disqualify the Chinese for something they didn't do, why on earth did they not favour the home tean amd just not pretend they hadn't seen it? Would anyone else have noticed? It's not like they were equipped with time machines and knew that they might have the opportunity to disqualify the Chinese in the final.

As for the Chinese, it makes no sense for the officials to knowingly disqualify them for something they didn't do in the final, when they could have done that at any stage of the competition. And why would they take away a gold medal from China only to favour a random country like Germany? Does Germany have that much clout in the IOC?

And if there is an Olympic conspiracy to deprive China of medals, why is China currently toping the medals table? China could easily have been deprived of medals in any sports that involve judge-based ratings - that includes gymnastics, diving and fencing. That's 10 gold medals there that could easily have been explained away.

I think this is a case of people explaining away disappointment. Like the French somehow alleging that our cyclists are cheating because our wheels are kept in plastic bags (or something), despite the fact that the wheels are made by a French company.
 
Last edited:

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Have you seen a single clear-cut image that they handed off within the rules? If it isn't possible to identify from the footage either way what happened, no one can say that they were robbed. Officials take decisions, they don't submit their findings to the general public to certify them as being correct.

So much for any pretence at objectivity from you. Anyone who turns the rules of the game on it's head clearly has an agenda he wished to pursue. Just FYI, no rules ever stated athletes are guilty until proven innocent of breaking the rules. Officials can only rule that an athlete has broken the rules when there is clear evidence to support it. In the absence of clear evidence, the athlete should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Your absurd claim about officials not needing to justify themselves to the public is also nonsensical. This is not some private deal between companies or countries. It's a sporting event. Officials have to justify their decisions, especially in cases like this where they had plenty of time to think about it and study all available information to come to an informed decision. In addition, the decision is based on a very clear-cut principle, and it should be very simply to demonstrate that there was an illegal hand-over.

Did the officials confirm that was the case, or is that the statement of the Chinese coaches?

Why should that matter? Is the word of the Chinese national coach not good enough for you?

In any event, I recall that the head of UK cycling equally pleaded with the officials after the British women won their semi-final, but his complaints fell on deaf ears as well. I should stress the deaf ears bit, because I recall the BBC commentators saying that it looked bad by the expressions of the officials when the coach was trying to argue it with them.

Did the officials point-blank refuse to look at the replays? There is a massive difference in rejecting an appeal and not hearing it at all you know.

In addition, you are confusing the point. The British pair clearly had an illegal hand over as was demonstrated beyond all possible doubt by videos and pictures. I cannot think of any valid excuse the British coach might have raised, and the fact that he did not bother to even make public what he was protesting to the officials about should be good evidence to show just how weak his case was.

For the Chinese pair, there have thus far not been any conclusive evidence shown, which is unexpected all by itself, and if the decision was made based on the very blurry and unclear video and images shown, it was a bad call as there was simply no way to tell for sure if they did hand over illegally, and in such circumstances, the benefit of the doubt should go with the athletes instead of twisting it into 'guilty until proven innocent' as you have.

The fact that the Chinese national coach was incensed enough to publicly voice his frustration should also be an indication of just how flimsy the case was to relegate the Chinese pair.

As I said earlier, the home team fell foul of these rules, not just the Chinese team. The British change-over was so close that only the judges could have seen it, and I was not aware of any other country lodging a protest with the judges. If they were so biased that they would disqualify the Chinese for something they didn't do, why on earth did they not favour the home tean amd just not pretend they hadn't seen it? Would anyone else have noticed? It's not like they were equipped with time machines and knew that they might have the opportunity to disqualify the Chinese in the final.

Well you clearly have no idea what you are talking about and is just arguing because you have an agenda as opposed to voicing an informed opinion.

Please go watch the clips I posted earlier. If you had known much about the basics of the race or seen the match live or any of the clips up online since, you would realise that the cyclists were traveling so fast not even the judges would have been able to see anything. It is no humanly possible to tell unless there is a very large foul.

The judges rely on video playback after the fact to determine if there had been an illegal hand off, and as such, it should have been extremely straight forward to tell one way or the other. When you watch the slow-mo replays, there is absolutely no doubt that the British pair did hand off illegally. That is simply not the case for the Chinese pair.

I doubt the decision to relegate them was so giant conspiracy, but it was a highly questionable call to being with, which was compounded by the way the officials flat out refused to even look at the evidence the Chinese coach was asking them to review.

Since it's all slow-mo replays, it should be very easy to tell one way or the other, and the Chinese coach would not have made such a big deal so publicly if he had no case.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top