Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Relationships based purely on power, as you advocate, are quite unstable; to stop WW3 was why the United Nations was formed. Some words from the opening sentence of the UN Charter: "We the peoples of the United Nations determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind...."

So the hope is that China/Russia can show the world how to build a stable community with a shared future for mankind. First of all, by treating each other decently.

Your way forces each major power to arm itself to the teeth, and that has already failed disastrously twice in just the twentieth century. How many examples do you need to learn?
You've moved the goalposts into another country. You claimed that China should treat Russia well because at some time in the future Russia is going to be stronger than China and then Russia will reciprocate. First, it's absurd to postulate that a country with less than a tenth of China's population is ever going to be more powerful than it. Second, it's even more absurd to postulate that countries remember favours and reciprocate them.

Show me an example in history where this happened. No talk about the WW3 or the UN Charter - one example where a country that was once strong but became weak and wasn't victimized by a now stronger neighbour.
 

56860

Senior Member
Registered Member
If Russia is so weak, why are no NATO soldiers officially fighting in Ukraine? Has any country in NATO -- including the mighty US -- dared to risk a few brigades of their own soldiers against the Russian Army? No, none of them have the courage to do it.

Regardless of Russia's strength, the Chinese would be fools to treat the Russians badly -- and that is probably why so many people in this forum advise the Chinese to do just that.



Better than a hierarchy of power, have the UN working again -- which is why the Russians and the Chinese have been emphasizing it.
Jai Putin?
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
If Russia is so weak, why are no NATO soldiers officially fighting in Ukraine? Has any country in NATO -- including the mighty US -- dared to risk a few brigades of their own soldiers against the Russian Army? No, none of them have the courage to do it.

Regardless of Russia's strength, the Chinese would be fools to treat the Russians badly -- and that is probably why so many people in this forum advise the Chinese to do just that.
Russia is the definition of a power in decline. Their relationship with the west is poisoned for decades and Russia's population, especially ethnic Russians are declining fast. If Russia manages to become a superpower again 200 years from now, will they really remember or care about how China treated them centuries earlier?

Reunification is very much identical to challenging US supremacy in the western Pacific. If it wasn't, Taiwan would have been resolved long ago. I am sure the Chinese leadership realizes, even if it hasn't said this publicly, that America's presence in the western Pacific is at the root of all China's strategic problems and uprooting that presence is China's ultimate goal.
It doesn't have to be that way. Winning a war against the US in the Pacific would be much easier if Taiwan is already under control. Much depends on who is in charge in the US. If an isolationist president like Trump returns to power, they're much less likely to intervene. Trump doesn't care about the autocracy-democracy BS that Biden talks about and he could probably be bought off by offering some trade concessions. So a very quick military success on Taiwan could be enough to reunify without a major war if the right person is US president at the time. Russia made the mistake of launching its invasion during the rule of the most trans-Atlantic president in decades.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
The point is Russia doesn't have the strength to go at America directly (it has to nibble away at Ukraine) while China will soon have the strength to do exactly that. That's the most important lesson for China to learn from the Ukraine conflict: that it has nothing to learn from it. What a weaker power does to gain what petty advantage it can is that weaker power's business - what China must do to remake the world order is China's business.
Yes Russia is weak today, yet America doesn't attack them. Your original point was that all China has to do is become much stronger than America. Me bringing up Russia/North Korea was to point out that

The disparity between North Korea and America is even bigger yet you still see a reluctance for America to invade, despite there being a legitimate pretext - withdrawal from the NPT, nuclear and missile proliferation, assassinations in other countries.

American foreign policy is anything but pacifist, look at the number of countries they've invaded in the past 20 years alone. They have no problem attacking Iraq, Syria, Libya and so on, yet when it comes to Russia or North Korea they know not to fuck around.

Maybe one day the disparity will reach those levels, but barring a USSR style break up it won't be any time soon.
The whole point of this exercise is for China to move past the point of caring what America thinks or does. Worrying about whether America will intervene is giving the initiative and deciding vote to America. Getting strong enough to bury America under the Pacific if it does anything less than swear on a stack of bibles that it won't intervene is the only way China can assure victory.
That's a cope. The reason unification hasn't happened has everything to do with military strength. If China could accomplish it today at acceptable cost, do you think it would still be an issue?
I don't think China needs to take on America militarily to retake Taiwan as you're proposing. Taiwan is not the same as controlling the west pacific.
It's as contained as a state has ever been. Its neighbours don't trade with it, it's impoverished, and all its nuclear weapons do is guarantee state survival. They don't extend its power and they don't advance any of its interests. Interesting question: why doesn't China establish full, normal trade relations with North Korea? The crystal clear answer is that it's still too weak and too dependent on the American-led world to flip it off that brazenly. Getting strong enough to correct that should be China's sole concern.
So in your future scenario where China dwarfs America in military strength, what's stopping America from doing what North Korea is doing?
Certainly not. Power politics has nothing to do with international law, it has everything to do with comprehensive national power and the balance of power. If international law claims Taiwan is part of China, why isn't international law delivering Taiwan to China?
International law is the framework you project your power through. It's a lot easier for China to take control of Taiwan, which is legal by international law, than somewhere like Mongolia.
I have time. Much more importantly, China has time. Are you in some hurry? Do you think China is in a hurry? Does it have somewhere it needs to be?
I'm in no hurry either, but your proposal is too slow. I've said to you before as countries become more developed they become more risk adverse. China is/will be in the goldilocks zone of development over the next few years. Developed enough to field a modern military but not so rich that citizens become indolent.

I think a better approach would be the salami slice method the Americans have been employing. Exert military pressure on Taiwan, a blockade, with the threat of war only if Taiwan retaliates. Make seeking a political solution with the ROC regime a much more attractive option than the alternative.

The big problem I have with your strategy is that it lets America off the hook completely. We both agree that the real problem to China's problems is America. It's very much in China's interest for America to fail like the USSR did. The Americans didn't sit on their hands like you would advise, they poked and prodded them through insurgencies, military exercises, diplomatic pressure.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Yes Russia is weak today, yet America doesn't attack them.
Why would it need to? America has Russia's entire European neighbourhood in its pocket and is bleeding Russia in a proxy war and increasing its vassals' dependence at no cost to itself. It doesn't have to take Russia as well, it's content with just taking everything around it. Far be it from me to ever accuse Americans of being reasonable, but they seem satisfied with taking 99% of everything; they don't have to have 100%.

Same with North Korea. North Korea doesn't have resources or anything worth conquering it for the way Russia does, it's just a shithole with nuclear weapons. Why would the US attack it? The same rules of nuclear use apply here, only North Korea couldn't threaten MAD the way Russia can. It could just scuff America before it was glassed.

America doesn't attack either because America is satisfied with how the world is arranged. China is not, that's China's incentive to attack - to reorder at least its immediate environment to be conducive to its security interests.
American foreign policy is anything but pacifist
Where did I claim it was? What does this have to do with what we're discussing?
So in your future scenario where China dwarfs America in military strength, what's stopping America from doing what North Korea is doing?
I think we've had this discussion before and I find myself repeating what I said then: There is a difference between state survival and maintaining hegemony. America can't threaten to use nuclear weapons to maintain its hegemony because if it uses them it will get destroyed. Nuclear weapons can only ensure state survival against external aggression, nothing else.
I don't think China needs to take on America militarily to retake Taiwan as you're proposing. Taiwan is not the same as controlling the west pacific.
Perhaps not, but that cedes the crucial decisions to America and wastes China's historical opportunity in a way I discuss below. Why would China willingly give its enemy such a commanding position?
International law is the framework you project your power through. It's a lot easier for China to take control of Taiwan, which is legal by international law, than somewhere like Mongolia.
No, it isn't. Destroyers, aircraft carriers, submarines, bombers, ballistic missiles, fighter jets, et al. are the framework you project your power through. Short of war, financial systems, technology, capital, etc. are the framework you project your power through. International law is fit only to be toilet paper.

Granted, China would have to come up with more creative excuses for invading Mongolia, but the point is that China has no interest in invading Mongolia. That's wholly independent from what international law says about it.
I've said to you before as countries become more developed they become more risk adverse. China is/will be in the goldilocks zone of development over the next few years. Developed enough to field a modern military but not so rich that citizens become indolent.
This is exactly why I don't want Taiwan resolved in the short term. That dynamic would be the default, but Taiwan is the exception. No matter how wealthy China is - whether its terraformed Mars and colonized it in its entirety - it would still go to war over Taiwan. There were people on Douyin and Weibo crying that Pelosi's plane wasn't shot out of the sky. This is a unique opportunity that every great statesman dreams of: casus belli in a can with no expiration date. Open whenever desired.

Yes, China should maintain the pressure on Taiwan through more extensive exercises, more provocative deployments, etc. But that's entirely different from launching a war to take Taiwan prematurely, and even if China could prevent US interference and take Taiwan at limited cost, it would be premature if China couldn't broaden the scope of the war to encompass the western Pacific. Taking Taiwan and accomplishing nothing else would be an appalling waste of perhaps the one free pass the Chinese government gets from its people to go to war.

Furthermore, there's a pragmatic objection that has nothing to do with my desire for Chinese hegemony: Limiting the scope to a regional war is inherently uncertain. Who's to say America wouldn't broaden the scope of the war? If it does, what then? We're still in the same boat of deferring the war no matter how one approaches the problem.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
You've moved the goalposts into another country. You claimed that China should treat Russia well because at some time in the future Russia is going to be stronger than China and then Russia will reciprocate.
They're the same goalposts in the same places. If you fail to understand, it's not my fault. China must treat Russia decently now so that the United Nations can be firmly established. When China weakens, as it will, a strong UN will be critical.


Show me an example in history where [a country ten times the size of another is weaker than another]. No talk about the WW3 or the UN Charter - one example where a country that was once strong but became weak and wasn't victimized by a now stronger neighbour.
Show me why relationships based purely on power are necessary or desirable. When the major powers are armed to the teeth, the situation is extremely unstable. We have already seen two disastrous instances of this configuration -- in just the twentieth century. How many more lessons do you need?
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia is the definition of a power in decline.
Russia's in decline? You mean all the NATO countries, which are losing the Ukraine war in a cowardly and humiliating fashion, these countries are on the rise? All these triumphant Europeans in NATO are not completely desperate to avoid freezing this winter?


If Russia manages to become a superpower again 200 years from now, will they really remember or care about how China treated them centuries earlier?
Quite possible. Russia was a superpower not so long ago -- and treated China fairly well. And that is why the Russia/China relationship is so strong now: there's no deep hatred between the two countries. Now that China is strong, it must reciprocate.

In any case, relationships based purely on power are dangerous -- for the countries in those relationships and for the world as a whole.

A better system is the absolutely brilliant idea behind the United Nations. The idea is collective security: if a country starts a war, all the other countries in the world will combine to punish the aggressor. In this system, no single country needs to be that heavily armed, and the world becomes far more stable. This is probably the reason that Xi and Putin have repeatedly emphasized the importance of the UN.

Yes, the West -- and especially the US -- have discovered many ways around the UN Charter. This just means that the UN needs to be fixed a bit, not thrown away as the "realists" in the hegemonic power would prefer.
 

W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
"Russia made the mistake of launching its invasion during the rule of the most trans-Atlantic president in decades."

It is exactly the other way around

the Ukrainian Gambit means sacrificing Ukraine in order to harm Russia, destabilize Russia, seek regime change to return to 'the good old days' of the drunkard, and as a final prize in the wild imagination of its authors corner China.

And the lesser prize was to bring the club of European vassals even more to its knees, an objective that has been fully achieved and surpassed all expectations.

The Ukrainian Gambit starts in 2008, escalates and starts the war in 2014 and the fanatics in London and Washington (with the complicit silence of the club of European vassals) double their bet and force the situation in 2021.

-You (Ukrainians from the West) are the civilized ones, Ukrainians from the East and Russians are the barbarians, and if you kill many Ukrainians of Russian origin you will enjoy the welfare of Denmark or Norway thanks to our magic, and if you go to "the great war with Russia" we will help you and your victory will be certain.

(And we all believe what we want to believe, and we all prefer sweet lies to the bitter truth.)
 

Rettam Stacf

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't understand why some members are so hung up on debating whether Russia or China is more powerful in this area or that, or whether Russia should be a junior partner in relationship with China. It does not matter. What is important is what types of benefits can be derived from the relationship for both.

Both Pakistan and N Korea, by all measures, are more aptly defined as a junior partner in their respective alliance with China. But China never treated them like one. China knows what are these two countries' own red lines and does not dictate to them or interfere with their internal policy. The two relationships or alliances have endure over the years because of that, and the two relationships continue to yield more benefits than liabilities for China to this day.

Russia, whether intentional or unintentionally, created a global south, if not the world, that is far more hospitable to a bipolar world, which China wants, since February while bearing the brunt of the Western "onslaught", and at the same time distracts the West's refocus back on China. These are highly beneficial to China. That is what count from China's point of view and not who should be a junior partner in the relationship.
 
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