Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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montyp165

Senior Member
China is also the largest trading partner of every SEA country IIRC. Plus China is the world's largest trading nation with most of this trade passing through the SCS. So China wants any and all trade to flow through the SCS with no interruptions.

In the event of a US-China conflict, it will be the US Navy trying to blockade China and cut off trade in the SCS. Note the littoral SEA nations really depend on this trade.

So further Chinese military capabilities means the Chinese military is better able to protect these trade flows from the US Navy.

Remember that countries representing about 1 billion people (out of 8 billion) have placed any sanctions on Russia because of Ukraine.
The other 7 billion people live in countries that haven't placed any sanctions.

And again, the Chinese Communist Party founding myth is against nasty colonial powers like Imperial Japan or the British Empire. Such an ideology is innately anti-expansionist in terms of warlike imperial conquests.

Not only that, at this point China's the last one able to break the Western imperialist stranglehold over the world economy and providing space for developing countries to grow instead of being permanent economic vassals to said imperialists, so China must be ready to fight especially given the devastation already wrought by the imperialists (e.g., Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc.) and of which the Russians and Iranians are already resisting.
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
I'm not quite sure why my statement that CURRENT China would draw in the war and come out behind economically long term is such a controversial statement. The West is not completely incapable without China, if the war gets hot enough they can manufacture everything they need since they already have the institutional knowledge, but they forgo that instead to pursue cheap labor elsewhere in the world, like the world ran just as smoothly before Chinese manufacturing become as massive as it was today, everything was just a bit more expensive.

I'm also not convinced that this current 'recession' faced by Europe is purely caused by the War in Ukraine, after all, it is a global event that even China is not escaping looking at recent GDP figures.

Many key industrial chains have moved out of western countries, and a sudden supply shock results in a double whammy of:
1. Local suppliers, manufacturers and retailers not having product to sell, which then affects downstream businesses in a chain reaction
2. High cost of labour for local supply

Subsequently, trying to recreate local supply conditions faces the cost ($ and time) to set up plant, training, quality (this goes hand in hand with training), and logistics. Big piece on training and worker effectiveness because locals here are not as hard working or dedicated as their overseas counterparts due to work culture. Unions are also a major pain.

If Europe had cheap gas and cheap steel as before, their consumers would not be experiencing those higher costs being passed down to them
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Many key industrial chains have moved out of western countries, and a sudden supply shock results in a double whammy of:
1. Local suppliers, manufacturers and retailers not having product to sell, which then affects downstream businesses in a chain reaction
2. High cost of labour for local supply

Subsequently, trying to recreate local supply conditions faces the cost ($ and time) to set up plant, training, quality (this goes hand in hand with training), and logistics. Big piece on training and worker effectiveness because locals here are not as hard working or dedicated as their overseas counterparts due to work culture. Unions are also a major pain.

If Europe had cheap gas and cheap steel as before, their consumers would not be experiencing those higher costs being passed down to them
not just that, they need to first just identify:

1. what products are made in China
2. what products are made domestically but contain Chinese components
3. what products are made domestically of domestic components but contain Chinese materials

Without identifying this - a massive task - they can't even usefully get started as many projects would be white elephants that produce a product intermediate without another intermediate, which means the entire final product doesn't get made. this builds up work in progress (WIP) products, which paralyzes the just-in-time supply chain which has low inventory, because now you both have inventory buildup of WIP (which you may not be able to handle due to limited warehouse space) and inventory lacking of finished products.

This is known from six sigma training. it would cripple the supply chain.
 

OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
In the case of Iraq, did the War on terror not cause Chinese high command to completely revamp the PLA? That's as much of a reaction as you could get in peace time and there was minimal threat to China from the US at the time. Can you imagine the amount of fear SEA countries will feel against the PLA when they are the biggest boy in the yard going on the aggressive? Getting involved is a natural reaction, to ignore it is to be unnatural, it doesn't matter how much money China pumps into your country, when it comes to territorial integrity there is no negotiation. (As China would say)
There was a discussion on r/Vietnam on whether Vietnam should intervene during a Taiwan scenario. Don't know if it was asked by a Westerner but most responses from Vietnamese were like WTH? I remember the most upvoted reply was "Taiwanese are just Chinese on an island" and there's absolutely no reason for Vietnam to get involved. No one can accuse r/Vietnam for being China-friendly.

This is not to say that after a Taiwan conflict ASEAN countries will not strengthen their relationship with U.S. as a hedge against a potential expansionist China. After all there was a wave of ASEAN countries normalizing their relations with China following North Vietnam victory in the Vietnam War, all in order to draw China in as a counterbalance against Vietnam. But I don't expect any overt military support to the U.S. during the conflict. Even U.S. think tanks are envisioning potential operations to forcibly seize ASEAN ports/airfields to use them against China.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
This is not to say that after a Taiwan conflict ASEAN countries will not strengthen their relationship with U.S. as a hedge against a potential expansionist China.
LOL of course not. If China defeats a US intervention or intimidates the US into not intervening, every country around it is going to ditch the US and align with China because China now runs the show.
 

5unrise

Junior Member
Registered Member
LOL of course not. If China defeats a US intervention or intimidates the US into not intervening, every country around it is going to ditch the US and align with China because China now runs the show.
At the risk of oversimplifying, I have to say that I think the reputational damage and loss of credibility would be the most plausible reason for the US to intervene in a Taiwan scenario. if the US loses Taiwan without a fight, it would be the moment the great American eagle is exposed for what it actually is: a paper tiger. In my view, that would risk the unravelling psychologically of the entire US position in Asia, to a greater extent than implied by the economic or military balance of power changes from the unification. Of course, the only thing worse than losing Taiwan without a fight is to fight China over Taiwan and losing that fight. The key here might not be whether Americans think the costs are worth it, it is more whether the US thinks it can win.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
  • PLA increases military exercises around the island, many coinciding with visits by US politicians
  • Mainland China is preparing to ‘pre-emptively strike a potential adversary’, defence expert says
Mainland China has adopted a more aggressive military posture towards Taiwan, holding more combat-readiness drills near the self-ruled island since the beginning of the year, according to analysts.
The assessment came after the Chinese Eastern Theatre Command of the People’s Liberation Army conducted several large-scale joint combat-readiness exercises in the waters and airspace around Taiwan on July 8.
Ridzwan Rahmat, principal defence analyst at global intelligence company Janes, said Chinese military operations had not only increased in tempo but also included a wider variety of military weapons and assets.
“These operations have evolved from routine constabulary patrols to something more expeditionary in nature. In other words, China has been preparing its forces to not only defend the Taiwanese island, but also getting ready to pre-emptively strike a potential adversary before it is able to even approach the contested island,” Rahmat said.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
not just that, they need to first just identify:

1. what products are made in China
2. what products are made domestically but contain Chinese components
3. what products are made domestically of domestic components but contain Chinese materials

Without identifying this - a massive task - they can't even usefully get started as many projects would be white elephants that produce a product intermediate without another intermediate, which means the entire final product doesn't get made. this builds up work in progress (WIP) products, which paralyzes the just-in-time supply chain which has low inventory, because now you both have inventory buildup of WIP (which you may not be able to handle due to limited warehouse space) and inventory lacking of finished products.

This is known from six sigma training. it would cripple the supply chain.

An old article which has an estimate of $1 Trillion+ to relocate supply chains out of China.

The figure would be significantly higher now and it also doesn't factor in higher production costs. Plus how many years would this take to do?

Fortune.com/2020/08/19/china-us-trade-global-supply-chain-decoupling/
fortune.com
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
PLA logistics capabilities likely cannot support a large-scale invasion of Taiwan. PLA's ability to conduct a large scale combat operation in even their own backyard is, by their own assessment, from a logistics perspective getting better but still extremely dicey
In some cultures, due to face saving and fragile egos, it is unacceptable to publicly admit the possibility of failure, so they spin failure in all sorts of different ways that don't use the word failure. other common slogans include "from a position of strength" "evacuated after being surrounded" and "a fighting retrograde advance".

in other cultures, it is OK to admit deficiencies.
 
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