Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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Overbom

Brigadier
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PLA logistics capabilities likely cannot support a large-scale invasion of Taiwan. PLA's ability to conduct a large scale combat operation in even their own backyard is, by their own assessment, from a logistics perspective getting better but still extremely dicey
Informative analysis but as usual, biased commentary (by you and that Twitter thread).


Did you even read the report? That 2017 volume was heavily referenced in this report. You would think that before writing such commentary and writing these threads there would be disclaimers at the beginning, that this report is based on a 2017 analysis. That's 5 years ago. You might as well as talk about another country at that point given the military reforms refinements and logistic development that has happened since then
This report examines PLA logistics support for a large-scale invasion of Taiwan. It draws heavily
from a 2017 volume entitled Operational Logistics Support, published by the PLA’s All Army Logistics Academic Research Center.
The primary focus of this book is on logistics support to a large-scale amphibious operation against Taiwan. It is part of a series of logistics publications intended to support Central Military Commission decision making. This “internal” (内部) publication provides highly detailed information on PLA logistics doctrine and capabilities. It also discusses PLA weaknesses and offers proposals for remedying them.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Not only that, at this point China's the last one able to break the Western imperialist stranglehold over the world economy and providing space for developing countries to grow instead of being permanent economic vassals to said imperialists, so China must be ready to fight especially given the devastation already wrought by the imperialists (e.g., Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc.) and of which the Russians and Iranians are already resisting.

I wouldn't call the current system imperialist as such, because there is actually a lot of national independence in the world. Remember that US ideology is also innately anti-imperialist. After all, the narrative is the plucky American colonies rebelling against an oppressive British Empire. So today, we see the US is an Empire in denial.

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But yes, if China becomes a high-income nation in the following decades, China should drag up incomes in every low-middle income country.

For example, China shares land borders with Laos and Afghanistan which are amongst the poorest countries in the world. A high-income China would be an expensive location, so factories and other economic activities should relocate from China to these countries and raise living standards. A similar logic applies to the 7 billion people in the world in low or middle income countries.

However, if economies remain dependent on burning fossil fuels to power society, we would be looking at global warming in excess of 5C, which means the apocalypse-type scenarios for the world become a reality.

But China is leading the world in the production and deployment of clean energy technologies like wind, solar and electric vehicles. So if China succeeds in making clean technologies cheap enough to be standard, this will eliminate the burning of fossil fuels. At the same time, a hi-tech China will likely be high-income China with an economy (and presumably military spending) some 3-4x larger than the US.

China currently has an official net zero target of 2060 which is 10 years after many other countries. But given the current (and accelerating) pace of renewable energy installations in China, I reckon they'll easily be the first major country to scone net zero emissions. This outcome isn't by chance, but from deliberate government policies. One can ask why the US isn't providing gimbal leadership in this area, considering

So in summary, China becoming high-income country is a good thing for the economic prosperity of 7 out of 8 billion people in the world. Plus Chinese global leadership in clean energy would also save the world from catastrophic global warming and climate change.

And in relation to Taiwan, China is happy with the status quo as the long-term trends are very favourable to China. This supports a resolution to the Taiwan question without a war in the decades ahead.
 

W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't know what planet in this galaxy you just came from.

I don't know where to start to tell you what has happened in the last years in this beautiful asteroid and painful world, maybe (not to go too far back and only refer to the recent) I could start with TutMoses III and TiglatPileser III

Two hundred years from now, TutMoses III of the Egyptian empire and Tiglath-Pileser III of the Assyrian empire will be seen as lyric-loving humanists compared to the American Military Empire, the deadliest that the face of the earth has seen to date.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's a good thing that China is building a planetary defense system against asteroids, which may save the world one day.

Saving the world indeed.

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China is building the world's most far-reaching radar system for planetary defense

interestingengineering.com/china-is-building-radar-system-for-planetary-defense

I don't know what planet in this galaxy you just came from.

I don't know where to start to tell you what has happened in the last years in this beautiful asteroid and painful world, maybe (not to go too far back and only refer to the recent) I could start with TutMoses III and TiglatPileser III

Two hundred years from now, TutMoses III of the Egyptian empire and Tiglath-Pileser III of the Assyrian empire will be seen as lyric-loving humanists compared to the American Military Empire, the deadliest that the face of the earth has seen to date.
 

W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
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The Roman Empire had about 40 military bases along the "limes", and its heir the American Military Empire has about 40 military bases along the "limes" from Scotland to Korea surrounding what is beyond the "limes".

The inhabitants of all empires (Egyptian, Assyrian, Athenian ... Roman ... Portuguese, Spanish, French, British ... American) live inside a great Bell of thoughts and fantasies.

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Of this empire (the most colossal and deadly that has been seen on the face of the earth) it is striking for the skill of its scribes, not only capable of filling the heads of the plebs with fantasies but capable of laughing at themselves.

In this sense America is unique and exceptional. In all other respects it is exactly the same as all the Empires we have seen.
 

zhangjim

Junior Member
Registered Member
And in relation to Taiwan, China is happy with the status quo as the long-term trends are very favourable to China. This supports a resolution to the Taiwan question without a war in the decades ahead.
Only on this point, my attitude is very pessimistic.In fact, many people in our country are very dissatisfied with this situation.
The preferential treatment policy for these Taiwanese people means that ordinary people become de facto second-class citizens.They have priority in all aspects of society - just because they are Taiwanese.
" China is happy with the status quo as the long-term trends are very favourable to China".The biggest problem with this statement is that it does not take into account the actual feelings of the people in Chinese Mainland and the wishes of Taiwan island for reunification.
The Taiwan independence faction is becoming more and more provocative, and they have shown extreme attachment to foreign countries.
People have to consider whether the current policy is effective.

The reason of "buying time for our development" seems to be difficult to convince the public.Moreover, the lesson of Hong Kong makes people think that the "reunification" obtained through political concessions is bound to fail. If they are allowed to autonomy, they will inevitably choose to cooperate with foreign countries to blackmail us.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Only on this point, my attitude is very pessimistic.In fact, many people in our country are very dissatisfied with this situation.
The preferential treatment policy for these Taiwanese people means that ordinary people become de facto second-class citizens.They have priority in all aspects of society - just because they are Taiwanese.
" China is happy with the status quo as the long-term trends are very favourable to China".The biggest problem with this statement is that it does not take into account the actual feelings of the people in Chinese Mainland and the wishes of Taiwan island for reunification.
The Taiwan independence faction is becoming more and more provocative, and they have shown extreme attachment to foreign countries.
People have to consider whether the current policy is effective.

The reason of "buying time for our development" seems to be difficult to convince the public.Moreover, the lesson of Hong Kong makes people think that the "reunification" obtained through political concessions is bound to fail. If they are allowed to autonomy, they will inevitably choose to cooperate with foreign countries to blackmail us.
I understand the sentiment you raised but don't use your sentiment as the sentiment of the large segment of the Chinese population, unless there's some kind of survey/poll that supports your personal take. And how the heck is the population of less than 26 million getting preferential treatment over the 1.4 Billion mainland Chinese? In what ways are the Chinese in Taiwan getting preferential treatment? Are their kids being prioritize in Chinese schools, jobs, business breaks/taxes/incentives whenever they elect to settle in the mainland? Provide concrete examples to back up your claims and not just provide a red herring to create an even more negative atmosphere towards our brethrens in Taiwan.
 

5unrise

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huh

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This is some of the most pointless discussion I have ever heard from someone who is supposedly well-informed in military affairs. Half of the discussion seems to be over the semantical label of who would be the 'aggressor' or the 'defender' in a US intervention over Taiwan, for the sole purpose of trying to shoe-horn that particular contingency into the same shoe as the Ukraine War. There is not even a pretense to even try to argue why the two situations are comparable, and if so, in what way are they comparable, and in what ways are they are actually different. There's no attempt to differentiate the geopolitical environment in the Pacific compared to Europe, the overall balance of power, land vs. naval warfare, the strategic depth of Taiwan compared to Ukraine, so on and so forth. I was hoping for something much more, but instead got the standard CNN/BBC bland reporting.

There is also a blind faith in the media trope that Russia is losing in Ukraine. But I doubt Ukraine is actually winning in reality. Russia is encountering unexpected difficulties, but I would not be betting my life savings on Ukraine staying as a western-aligned state in the near future. There is just so much assumptions going into this that are not necessarily able to be taken at face value by anyone not already drinking their koolaid.

This particular paragraph is particularly non-sensical:

"Because what a lot of people don’t understand about leadership, battle command, and NCO corps is that the essence of the strength of these capabilities is cultural, not technical. It is the willingness of the senior officer to delegate authority and to accept the counsel of a subordinate in their command over their own judgment.
For example, as a general, I had a sergeant major. If I propose to do something and he says, “Sir, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard,” I have two choices. I can get angry about it or feel as if I’ve lost face, or I can modify my plans based upon the wise counsel that he’s given. In the U.S. system, I gain in stature with my forces by doing that. In some other cultures, that would produce a loss of face and a challenge to authority that could not be countenanced. That’s why you can form an NCO corps, but it may not be as effective in a Russian or a Chinese cultural context as it is in the U.S. context."


I mean, let's assume that 'face' is the most important thing a Chinese or Russian general cares about, as he asserted. Let's assume the senior PLAN officers only care about their social stature. Would you end up 'having more face' if you refused what you understand to be good advice and lose, or if you taken onboard the advice and win? Come one - some basic logic would be appreciated in a conversation with a top US think tank.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
This is some of the most pointless discussion I have ever heard from someone who is supposedly well-informed in military affairs. Half of the discussion seems to be over the semantical label of who would be the 'aggressor' or the 'defender' in a US intervention over Taiwan, for the sole purpose of trying to shoe-horn that particular contingency into the same shoe as the Ukraine War. There is not even a pretense to even try to argue why the two situations are comparable, and if so, in what way are they comparable, and in what ways are they are actually different. There's no attempt to differentiate the geopolitical environment in the Pacific compared to Europe, the overall balance of power, land vs. naval warfare, the strategic depth of Taiwan compared to Ukraine, so on and so forth. I was hoping for something much more, but instead got the standard CNN/BBC bland reporting.

There is also a blind faith in the media trope that Russia is losing in Ukraine. But I doubt Ukraine is actually winning in reality. Russia is encountering unexpected difficulties, but I would not be betting my life savings on Ukraine staying as a western-aligned state in the near future. There is just so much assumptions going into this that are not necessarily able to be taken at face value by anyone not already drinking their koolaid.

This particular paragraph is particularly non-sensical:

"Because what a lot of people don’t understand about leadership, battle command, and NCO corps is that the essence of the strength of these capabilities is cultural, not technical. It is the willingness of the senior officer to delegate authority and to accept the counsel of a subordinate in their command over their own judgment.
For example, as a general, I had a sergeant major. If I propose to do something and he says, “Sir, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard,” I have two choices. I can get angry about it or feel as if I’ve lost face, or I can modify my plans based upon the wise counsel that he’s given. In the U.S. system, I gain in stature with my forces by doing that. In some other cultures, that would produce a loss of face and a challenge to authority that could not be countenanced. That’s why you can form an NCO corps, but it may not be as effective in a Russian or a Chinese cultural context as it is in the U.S. context."


I mean, let's assume that 'face' is the most important thing a Chinese or Russian general cares about, as he asserted. Let's assume the senior PLAN officers only care about their social stature. Would you end up 'having more face' if you refused what you understand to be good advice and lose, or if you taken onboard the advice and win? Come one - some basic logic would be appreciated in a conversation with a top US think tank.
It is rather interesting because within Chinese culture, it has been proven time and time again that people respect, or gain face, when they deliver results and participate in teamwork based solutions. In contrast, in American culture, face is gained when someone acts tough and immovable, forcing others to make way for his superior authority.

One most obvious example is during the recent pandemic, Chinese politicians took to asking from help from the medical community, and humbly deferred to their advice, because there is no penalty in admitting they're not the experts.

Within America instead, every local leader came up with their own ways and advices, ranging from disinfectant to horse dewormer, strict lockdowns to denialism. This happened because admitting wrongdoing and listening to others advice is a severe mistake in US culture, whoever doing it would be seen as "weak".

It is the same pervasive cultural flaw that leads to even the terminology within US documents to be corrupted. For example, in a military war game about an American invasion of Taiwan, the US side can face defeat, yet the paper itself will only be able to say China is a "near peer" adversary. Logically, if your forces were defeated, then it is you who is the near peer adversary. But admitting this fact would lead to severe loss of face, so Americans dare not put it in writing.

Try and imagine how big of a handicap this mentality will be in a conflict. It is not just a hypothetical either. This flaw was visible during the Korean War as well. Really, the outnumbered PVA with less tanks, less airplanes, had no business taking an entire country's worth of ground from America, which was at its peak strength. However, once US soldiers were made to retreat, pervasive fear of admitting defeat caused US NCO to vastly exaggerate enemy losses, blinding the generals from knowing the true situation on the ground, opening up US combined arms brigades to being encircled by basic motorized infantry, because their generals were being fed the information that there should be no more PVA, they're all dead because every US NCO reported their squad mowed down hundreds of commies. This was the difference in quality between military professionalism of the PLA and US army in 1950. Of course, US could have leapfrogged since then, but is that really believable that a nation that can't admit inferiority would be able to achieve any feats of such rapid improvement?

What American leaders should think about is, do they have an army capable of withstanding setbacks? Yes, the number of US military is very impressive, more so than the PLA. But do US soldiers possess the resolve to charge into a superior enemy, knowing many of them will die to achieve an objective? If one or several aircraft carriers are sunk, would the US state media be able to explain to the population?

Because if the answers to these questions are no, then what America has is just a huge rotten shack that collapses whenever any force is applied at them. Or a paper tiger if you will.
 
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