Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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FairAndUnbiased

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This is also basically impossible because Starlink has a large number of satellites at a very low cost, one Falcon 9 rocket can put 60 satellites into orbit at a time, and this rocket has very low launch costs and short lead times because it can be recovered. Whereas anti-satellite missiles are much more expensive and few in number, you have to save more of them for more important military reconnaissance satellites, not for stopping the Taiwanese from going on YouTube.
A 500 kg tungsten ball bearing payload with explosive dispenser can take out hundreds of cheap low orbit satellites with little fear of contaminating other orbits since they fly low.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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Sorry, I didn't see the previous discussion, but as far as I know, the only other ground facility you need to network with one Starlink terminal is a generator.
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You basically linked a full page ad for end user experience with Starlink. Of course they're not going to go into the details of how it actually works.

Here is a Starlink ground station that links to the rest of the internet.

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Here's a detailed look, seems like Starlink can never serve more than 500k users (1/40 of Taiwan population)

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Confusionism

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You basically linked a full page ad for end user experience with Starlink. Of course they're not going to go into the details of how it actually works.

Here is a Starlink ground station that links to the rest of the internet.

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Here's a detailed look, seems like Starlink can never serve more than 500k users (1/40 of Taiwan population)

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I'm not sure that you understand exactly what a Starlink gateway does. The gateways in your first link don't connect end users, as you said, they link satellites to the rest of the world's internet.

The satellite is the equivalent of the cable from your house to your ISP (assuming you use DSL), and the Starlink terminal is the equivalent of your DSL modem, and the gateway is your ISP's server. Your computer will establish a wireless link to the satellite via the Starlink terminal (yes, it's just a box and a dish antenna as simple as in the link I posted), and the satellite will connect to the gateway on the ground, either directly or via other satellites, which are located in the US or other countries, but not in Taiwan. The gateway does look complicated, but it is not directly related to the end user, just like you don't need to worry about your ISP's server room yourself.

I'm sure Starlink's internet speed can't be compared to a typical VDSL or fiber network, but we're not talking about enabling Taiwanese users to watch 4K TV episodes on Netflix even during the war here, the bandwidth provided by Starlink is more than enough for the problem we're talking about.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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I'm not sure that you understand exactly what a Starlink gateway does. The gateways in your first link don't connect end users, as you said, they link satellites to the rest of the world's internet.

The satellite is the equivalent of the cable from your house to your ISP (assuming you use DSL), and the Starlink terminal is the equivalent of your DSL modem, and the gateway is your ISP's server. Your computer will establish a wireless link to the satellite via the Starlink terminal (yes, it's just a box and a dish antenna as simple as in the link I posted), and the satellite will connect to the gateway on the ground, either directly or via other satellites, which are located in the US or other countries, but not in Taiwan. The gateway does look complicated, but it is not directly related to the end user, just like you don't need to worry about your ISP's server room yourself.

I'm sure Starlink's internet speed can't be compared to a typical VDSL or fiber network, but we're not talking about enabling Taiwanese users to watch 4K TV episodes on Netflix even during the war here, the bandwidth provided by Starlink is more than enough for the problem we're talking about.
If Starlink cannot connect to the rest of the internet then it is useless because it cannot transmit to or receive data from non Starlink users.

In hitting actual internet you don't hit end users or individual routers either, it is hitting data centers and sea cable links.

Low bandwidth means forcing choices. Keep critical internet bound infrastructure up or upload meme videos? A few loitering munitions against end users, and cutting the high bandwidth connections should provide sufficient deterrence to end use and significantly degrade end user experience. If insufficient, further degrade the system with a few 500 kg ball bearing shots to LEO.
 

Confusionism

Junior Member
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If Starlink cannot connect to the rest of the internet then it is useless because it cannot transmit to or receive data from non Starlink users.

In hitting actual internet you don't hit end users or individual routers either, it is hitting data centers and sea cable links.

Degrading bandwidth means forcing choices. Keep critical internet bound infrastructure up or upload meme videos?
Geez. Don't you know that all computers are networked through different gateways? Why can't you exchange data with non-Starlink users? Your gateway connects you to the rest of the internet, isn't that what "gateway" means? These gateways are not in Taiwan, they can be in the US, they can be in Europe, they can be in Japan, are you going to launch missiles into the world?
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Confusionism

Junior Member
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Low bandwidth means forcing choices. Keep critical internet bound infrastructure up or upload meme videos? A few loitering munitions against end users, and cutting the high bandwidth connections should provide sufficient deterrence to end use and significantly degrade end user experience. If insufficient, further degrade the system with a few 500 kg ball bearing shots to LEO.
This is also pure nonsense. The Taiwanese military would certainly use a completely different encrypted military communications satellite link instead of Starlink, so why do you think they would compete for bandwidth with the residents?
Using loitering munitions sweep Starlink? Don't be so fanciful. Starlinks are not radar, they are so low powered that they easily blend in with the airwaves of various civilian wireless devices, and are so directional that they are impossible to detect unless you fly right in front of them. Also, are you sure you want to fire loitering munitions to the top of a populated building?
Starlink is a US civilian asset and if a weapon is launched into international public LEO, congratulations, providing the US with yet another reason for armed intervention. And all this just to not want the Taiwanese population to use the Internet.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Geez. Don't you know that all computers are networked through different gateways? Why can't you exchange data with non-Starlink users? Your gateway connects you to the rest of the internet, isn't that what "gateway" means? These gateways are not in Taiwan, they can be in the US, they can be in Europe, they can be in Japan, are you going to launch missiles into the world?
bargraph.gif
Starlink typically transmits to a ground station within 500 miles or so. The signal goes from end user to Starlink satellite to ground station, which is connected with ground connections to the main backhaul connections.

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Removing the sea based cables or the microwave relays connecting any ground gateway to the rest of the internet near Taiwan is an option. And if not, degrading bandwidth and availability with either kinetic or electromagnetic capabilities is also an option. There's nothing immoral or illegal about targeting enemy military communication operators.
 

Confusionism

Junior Member
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Starlink typically transmits to a ground station within 500 miles or so. The signal goes from end user to Starlink satellite to ground station, which is connected with ground connections to the main backhaul connections.
Dude, open your Google Earth and draw a 500-mile radius circle with Taiwan as the center, and guess what places are in that circle?
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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This is also pure nonsense. The Taiwanese military would certainly use a completely different encrypted military communications satellite link instead of Starlink, so why do you think they would compete for bandwidth with the residents?
Using loitering munitions sweep Starlink? Don't be so fanciful. Starlinks are not radar, they are so low powered that they easily blend in with the airwaves of various civilian wireless devices, and are so directional that they are impossible to detect unless you fly right in front of them. Also, are you sure you want to fire roaming munitions at the top of a populated building?
Starlink is a US civilian asset and if a weapon is launched into international public LEO, congratulations, providing the US with yet another reason for armed intervention. And all this just to not want the Taiwanese population to use the Internet.
Starlink end user terminal draws 100W.

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For reference, a cell phone transmits at 0.6-3 W.

Do you have a source on signal directionality of Starlink? Just realize that even a visible laser (far higher frequency, far lower wavelength, far lower optical divergence) aimed at the moon spreads to diameter 7 km km2, and non collimated RF is likely to spread far more.

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An actual technical source with quantifiable specs like beam divergence would be great.

Finally, spreading propaganda = military activity = legal target.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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Dude, open your Google Earth and draw a 500-mile radius circle with Taiwan as the center, and guess what places are in that circle?
500 miles is the nameplate maximum, not the optimal distance.

A combination of jamming, hitting backhaul, hitting infrastructure and data centers, cutting undersea cables and threatening end users will likely be sufficient to greatly reduce Taiwanese internet throughput.

Once internet throughout is degraded to the level where industrial and commercial activities are impossible to achieve in combination with everyday backhaul traffic you'd see their propaganda machine slowly fall silent.

Also preventing shipment of end user terminals is fine too.
 
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