Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

This is what actual experts are saying, not bloggers like Shukla and sawnhey.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360021978929893384

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A small excerpt.

"Why did China agree?
The disengagement occurred because China appeared to alter its

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. Previously, China had demanded that India first withdraw from its new positions on the Kailash Range before China would move from the northern bank of Pangong Lake. The deadlock

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in late November, when China agreed to pull back to a position known as Finger 8, satisfying an Indian demand, but was not finalized until late January. Why did China change its position?"


And it looks like the narrative here has changed again. Apparently, google(which bass lines on official claims and documents) is wrong, so are almost all respeced defence analysts, and Ajai Shukla is right. Also interesting to see that particular retired officer is taken completely seriously, but Col. S. Dinny, who had RECENTLY served on Pangong Tso is supposedly a bhakt becasue he said Indian troops had never patrolled past finger 3. Brig. RJS does not even say the that pp14 is past the bend, just that the lac is east of that point, which is true. I am especially interested in how Indian soldiers regularly patrolled across the river without a bridge, or why the Indian government supposedly claimed up to exact point Ajai Shukla is claiming(even though no GOI documents support that. Also interesting taht despite that point suppowedly being the lac, there are no roads or foot paths connecting it to the IIndian side. But I guess Chinese members here have to claim victory somehow. Ironically that Ajai Shukla article contradicts China's claims
that India violated the Lac.

This shows the buffer zone pretty well. Keep in mind India never disputed the LAC. at Galwan. PP14 is definitely located west of the LAC, meaning that CHina did temporarily violate it, though it is definitely not as far east as Shukla insists it is

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280048908878544896

And this is what the wire, the same outlet Pravin Sawhney writes for, shows as the LAC

Shiv Aroor, one of the most accurate journalists covering the conflict, also shows the bend as pp14, and uses the same lac as Google and the wire

So obviously, there must be some confusion



View attachment 69578

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White guy experts on China are really accurate. Every prediction from saying that China will collapse (1989 to now), that its economy can never compete with a Western one, that its people cannot innovate, to the one where Gates said that China wouldn't have a stealth fighter until 2020 by the earliest, is dead on. If you ever need to do a process of elimination on China, ask white guy self-proclaimed "China experts" what they think the correct answer is and everything they tell you can basically be eliminated LOL

siegecrossbow said:

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Crappy Indian infrastructure will hinder the PLA's advance more so than any resistance afforded by the actual Indian Army lol.

twineedle said:

This is what actual experts are saying, not bloggers like Shukla and sawnhey.

Click to expand...

twineedle said:

This shows the buffer zone pretty well. Keep in mind India never disputed the LAC. at Galwan. PP14 is definitely located west of the LAC, meaning that CHina did temporarily violate it, though it is definitely not as far east as Shukla insists it is

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280048908878544896

So obviously, there must be some confusion

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Bold 1: You have given them expert titles. Nice.

Bold 2:That's your remark. "definitely located west". Shukla's claims has got corroborating evidences from the Ladakh Patrol leader of 1970s itself.

Bold 3: There is the possibility that Indian media has been given false information by the government. The article itself raises that suspicion.

There indeed is some confusion.
Y junction isn't PP14. India framed it as PP14 for political purposes.

You haven't submitted any worthwhile evidences other than anecdotes from sources you badge experts. That retired Ladakh Patrol leader's statement stands tall against your pickings of "experts". They could be cronies, if anything.


Next time try to post coherent. Your posts juggle with subject matters (Pangong, Hearsay, Galwan, Opinions)

Xsizor said:

Bold 1: You have given them expert titles. Nice.

Bold 2:That's your remark. "definitely located west". Shukla's claims has got corroborating evidences from the Ladakh Patrol leader of 1970s itself.

Bold 3: There is the possibility that Indian media has been given false information by the government. The article itself raises that suspicion.

There indeed is some confusion.
Y junction isn't PP14. India framed it as PP14 for political purposes.

You haven't submitted any worthwhile evidences other than anecdotes from sources you badge experts. That retired Ladakh Patrol leader's statement stands tall against your pickings of "experts". They could be cronies, if anything.


Next time try to post coherent. Your posts juggle with subject matters (Pangong, Hearsay, Galwan, Opinions)

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He is also deliberately spread misinformation. How come China retreated 60 km? where is the proof?



So far the information that is available is China withdraw back to its post before China moved forward to finger 4 to deter further India invasion that happened at Galwan Valley, where India got beaten after trying to go beyond China's perception of LAC.

If the ruler from Google Earth is not wrong, distance from finger 4 to finger 8 is only around 7km, and distance from finger 4 to finger 2-3 is around 3km.





This move by China is already predicted many months ago, a move by China to give India a saving face option after its blunder at Galwan Valley.

The "evidence" posted above does not corroborate anything. Read closely, he just says, pp14 is well behind the lac. Which is true, all of the images previously posted have shown that. As I have said, pp14 is a patrolling, point that marks the etent of Indian patrols. That doesn't always line up exactly with the lac. And Brig. RJS eid not corroborate what SHukla claimed. He himself was unsure of exactly how facr the lac was where he patrolled, and he could even be remembering incorrectly. Or perhaps things have changed since 1970- maybe the Indian millitary decided there was little strategic or tactical benefits to patrolling to that random spot, especially considering the dangers involved. And I did not see him specifically state that pp14 was not the bend- just that pp14 was behind the lac, which is true. Just not by a km.

And it is interesting that Brig RJS' testimny is supposed to be completely true, but Col. Dinny, who recently patrolled Pangong, is lying or conducting information warfare by saying Indian troops never patrolled past f3 under his command.

And Shiv Aroor, Nitin Gokhale, etc. are NOT croneis _ they are respected journalists who have provided factual coverage on the standoff and talk to ACTUAL gov. sources. Whereas Shukla is openly biased against the current Indian gov.

And until last year, Galwan was not one of the areas with differering perceptions. India respected the status quo as of 1962, which is shown on Google maps, and lies at most 500m behind the bend/pp14. I have yet to see one Indian document claiming further, other tahn in Shukla's article. But then again, considering, that despite Chinese embassy statements show that China now claims the entire valley, there are still Indian camps and infrastructure very close to the pp14, showing that China failed to shift the LAC. So I gess some Chines members here have to claim victory somehow, using a single article by a dubious source, even though almost all other respected analysts/j journalists are contradicting him.

Oh, btw, Dr. Fravel is a MIT political scientists who is considered a leading China expert. But I suppose he is not as reputable as Ajai Shukla


And if Ajai Shukla is correct(which it isn't) it goes against the narrative China tried to spread with the video that India was the agressor.

Cyclist said:

He is also deliberately spread misinformation. How come China retreated 60 km? where is the proof?

View attachment 69584

So far the information that is available is China withdraw back to its post before China moved forward to finger 4 to deter further India invasion that happened at Galwan Valley, where India got beaten after trying to go beyond China's perception of LAC.

If the ruler from Google Earth is not wrong, distance from finger 4 to finger 8 is only around 7km, and distance from finger 4 to finger 2-3 is around 3km.

View attachment 69585

View attachment 69586

This move by China is already predicted many months ago, a move by China to give India a saving face option after its blunder at Galwan Valley.

View attachment 69587

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Please learn what km squared means. I am curious why you are criticizing me for that, but not countless people here who are spreading lies that India lost 1000 km of territory, even though satellite images show India did not lose any territory. Are you saying that chinese pots and infra were all lined up in a straight line?

twineedle said:

Please learn what km squared means. I am curious why you are criticizing me for that, but not countless people here who are spreading lies that India lost 1000 km of territory, even though satellite images show India did not lose any territory. Are you saying that chinese pots and infra were all lined up in a straight line?

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Your post said kilometer not km squared.



Even point by point, it is only around 7km.

manqiangrexue said:

White guy experts on China are really accurate. Every prediction from saying that China will collapse (1989 to now), that its economy can never compete with a Western one, that its people cannot innovate, to the one where Gates said that China wouldn't have a stealth fighter until 2020 by the earliest, is dead on. If you ever need to do a process of elimination on China, ask white guy self-proclaimed "China experts" what they think the correct answer is and everything they tell you can basically be eliminated LOL

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An "expert" is an American neologism for fascist racism. A "Chinese expert" hates China and focuses on ways to bring them down, Russian experts are the same with Russia and "Middle eastern experts" are the same with Muslims.

They're a modern version of British orientalists who would study natives around the world to help the empire enslave and exploit them.

And if anyone wants a source by an author not favorable to Modi here is a good one.
Quote
"Since May 5-6, troops of both countries had a face-off in the Galwan River sector. The PLA troops reportedly crossed the LAC from their bases in this sector. The face-off took place at a point which is known as Patrol Point 14 (PP14), which is not only on the Indian side but is also close to the LAC"
This corroborates Brig RJS, who said pp14 has always been on the Indian side, and behind the lac. Google even shows it behing east of bend/pp14. But I guess now even Google is a BJP crony, like Shiv Aroor, Nitin Gokhale, Rohit Vats, Dr. Fravel, Col. Dinny, and the rest of the list that keeps on growing.

twineedle said:

This corroborates Brig RJS, who said pp14 has always been on the Indian side, and behind the lac

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Why would a territory inside india's LAC has 'China' written on it??
Also why do you keep posting western news article that are written by indians? This is not at the slightest even close to what is considered to be an 'anti-india' source.