Ladakh Flash Point

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siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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Temstar said:
Well wasn't this gang of 600 hand picked from 22 different battalions? Presumably for their hand to hand combat prowess?

The problem with that sort of mixed unit is lack of unit cohesion and morale. You can in the video the front of the formation is already in action against the PLA while there are heaps of people standing around in the back looking lost. This also went a long way to diminish the initial numerical superiority.
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To be fair this was before the actual combat happened. But I agree with your points. Indian numeric superiority actually proved to be its undoing when the tide of battle turned. In pre-gunpowder warfare, most of the injuries and deaths are not inflicted by blades and arrows, but stampeding troops.

The use of so many hand picked soldiers from different unit seems to be a bad move. India is diverse country with many different languages, many not intelligible to one another. That could prevent serious communication barriers during combat. The commander in charge is also probably not familiar with troops from different units.

Finally, there does not seem to be a clear line of command succession in the Indian army. When their commanding officer is killed or captured the rest of them don’t know what to do. I think they probably expected something similar from the PLA, which prompted them to perform a “decapitation strike” against Commander Qi and Officer Chen. I think they genuinely expected the rest of Qi’s battalion to scatter and flee so they can capture it all on video and get a big fat promotion. The irony is that those who lived (even the captives) all got rewarded despite their failure.
 
quantumlight

quantumlight

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localizer said:
Should ready some water cannons that pump that icy water next time.
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Since they cant use real guns what about plastic water guns filled with acid.
Not sure whats the international rules on that but seems like anything goes these days... I mean if US is already accusing China of genocide and Indian army is ambushing negotiators... might as well be done with pretenses
 
T

tch1972

Junior Member
Chinese leadership don't understand Indian but People in Singapore and Malaysia knows the Indian too well having live and work together for the past 100 years

I would think it unwise for China to let India get away so easily after what they done. Yes China play the strategic game but from a tactical point of view, the Indian will come back once they perceive weakness in opponents.

And yes, i understand China is eager to court India and work together but it a wishful thinking on China's part for the past few decades . Indian think of geopolitics as a zero sum game and can never think of working forward to a win-win outcome. That their paranoid nature and mentality and it not China's job to educate the Indian.

Hence i say forget it. Forcus your attention on Pakistan and SL instead

As for now disengagement may bring short term peace to the border but i am pretty sure the indian will be back again. India needs more than another 62 thrashing. China needs to ensure india get 2 bullets on their heads the next time. (see the link below)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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tch1972 said:
Chinese leadership don't understand Indian but People in Singapore and Malaysia knows the Indian too well having live and work together for the past 100 years

I would think it unwise for China to let India get away so easily after what they done. Yes China play the strategic game but from a tactical point of view, the Indian will come back once they perceive weakness in opponents.

And yes, i understand China is eager to court India and work together but it a wishful thinking on China's part for the past few decades . Indian think of geopolitics as a zero sum game and can never think of working forward to a win-win outcome. That their paranoid nature and mentality and it not China's job to educate the Indian.

Hence i say forget it. Forcus your attention on Pakistan and SL instead

As for now disengagement may bring short term peace to the border but i am pretty sure the indian will be back again. India needs more than another 62 thrashing. China needs to ensure india get 2 bullets on their heads the next time. (see the link below)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Click to expand...

I think the Chinese government should invest in studying South Asian culture, like a genuine effort like they have for the U.S. and Japan. There appears to be a vast cultural gulf between China and India stemming from the differences in Confucian and Hindu thinking. Malaysian or Singaporean Chinese can offer lessons since they are knowledgeable about both. China already sends most of their officials to learn about governance in Singapore.

But I think that for now the PLA leadership, at least, have learned their lesson after several confrontations and countless hours of fruitless disengagement talks. I’ve heard a pretty reliable rumor that the PLA negotiator didn’t twist words with their Indian counterparts in the tenth disengagement talks and stated something to the effect that if any bloodshed occurs during the current disengagement, China will launch a military offense that will guarantee 3-5 years of peace. How the Indians interpret it will be up to them, really.
 
Sardaukar20

Sardaukar20

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twineedle said:
No reason for wars when you can achieve your objectives in other ways. And the disengagement deal achieved all of India's strategic goals as a result of China's withdrawal from Pangong.
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Ah the 'finger guy' troll. Thanks for your trolling. It means that my post have actually caused enough butthurt to warrant a troll visit.

I'll let you earn your rupees, since life must be hard for you when Superpower 2020 had passed India by. This is indeed an Indian victory! Look at what India had achieved:
1) India had surrendered 1000sqkm of Chinese land back to China. And India had agreed to China's territorial lines.
2) Indian Army ambushed a PLA negotiating party with a 10:1 advantage. They were victorious. The Indian Army got their assess kicked, colonel killed, and got a routing that would be legendary in 21st century war history.
3) On top of that, India surrendered the Kailash Range to sweeten the deal.

That's was a wonderful victory for India! By gifting China a victory that it wasn't even dreaming for decades. All without a major hot war.

Even Pravin Sawhney, your more respectable fellow Indian ex-military man agrees:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362970145791107073
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363274159418081280

Let's all celebrate this great victory! Jai Hind! :cool:
 
localizer

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
quantumlight said:
Since they cant use real guns what about plastic water guns filled with acid.
Not sure whats the international rules on that but seems like anything goes these days... I mean if US is already accusing China of genocide and Indian army is ambushing negotiators... might as well be done with pretenses
Click to expand...
water balloons :cool:

get wet in that sort of cold = u dead man
 
localizer

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
siegecrossbow said:
View attachment 69123

Looking at high the Indians are equipped, I think that they were at a disadvantage versus PLA reinforcement.

1) Even though they carried riot shields and had helmets with faceplates, their torsos were unarmored. This left the limbs and vitals relatively unprotected. When fighting at high altitudes, one tires easily and may leave more of the body exposed.
2) They are not wearing water proof clothing. Considering the fact that much of the fighting took place in frigid water and a good portion of it happened at night, hypothermia is a major problem.
3) Their weapons are not standardized. Some carried metal rods but others are carried wooden twigs (sticks if I'm generous). That would do no good against heavily armored PLA skirmishers.
4) In literally none of the videos have I seen any semblance of formation from Indian troops. This is a major problem in hand to hand combat. Having a shield wall allows you to protect your partners and leave very little vulnerabilities. Galwan River valley has many choke points where the conditions favor the faction with disciplined formations.
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They’re quite used to beating people with sticks and batons.

Just not used to the victims fighting back.
 
Sardaukar20

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
siegecrossbow said:
I think the Chinese government should invest in studying South Asian culture, like a genuine effort like they have for the U.S. and Japan. There appears to be a vast cultural gulf between China and India stemming from the differences in Confucian and Hindu thinking. Malaysian or Singaporean Chinese can offer lessons since they are knowledgeable about both. China already sends most of their officials to learn about governance in Singapore.

But I think that for now the PLA leadership, at least, have learned their lesson after several confrontations and countless hours of fruitless disengagement talks. I’ve heard a pretty reliable rumor that the PLA negotiator didn’t twist words with their Indian counterparts in the tenth disengagement talks and stated something to the effect that if any bloodshed occurs during the current disengagement, China will launch a military offense that will guarantee 3-5 years of peace. How the Indians interpret it will be up to them, really.
Click to expand...
Agreed. The Chinese government can learn about Indian culture anytime, it is widely available knowledge. Unfortunately to learn about the Indian mind, its a whole different matter. There no classes or books for that. All that knowledge to understand the Indian mind by the Chinese communities in Singapore and Malaysia comes from experience, not courses. The governments and institutions in Singapore and Malaysia cannot officially teach China on how to truly understand the Indian mind, because that would be seen as undermining their own racial harmony. So the Chinese government would have to learn this covertly, on the street level.

That being said, the ethnic Indian communities in Malaysia and Singapore, no matter how negative some of their traits, they could never match the Indians. We cannot equate the overseas Indian communities with actual Indians. Because they have learnt to live as a minority community for generations. And they have access to much better education than the average Indians in India. Take Kishore Mabubani for example, he is nothing like the Indians we typically laugh at. This is a model statesman, who was able to serve as the President of the UN Security Council in 2001-2002. He considers himself Singaporean, not Indian. There are practically no Jai Hinds or Bhakts in Malaysia and Singapore. Their kind are too alien to thrive in those societies. Finding them in these countries would be the same as trying to find FLG communities there.

Therefore, learning about the Indian mind in Malaysian and Singapore can only get us to around level 5 at most. It would give a good foundation. But Indians are actually beyond level 10. So, if the Chinese government is looking for a crash-course. I would think that the best consultants would have to come from South Asia. Learning from Pakistan would be a good start. Pakistan had much experience being on the receiving end of Indian violence and propaganda.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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Staff member
Super Moderator
Sardaukar20 said:
Agreed. The Chinese government can learn about Indian culture anytime, it is widely available knowledge. Unfortunately to learn about the Indian mind, its a whole different matter. There no classes or books for that. All that knowledge to understand the Indian mind by the Chinese communities in Singapore and Malaysia comes from experience, not courses. The governments and institutions in Singapore and Malaysia cannot officially teach China on how to truly understand the Indian mind, because that would be seen as undermining their own racial harmony. So the Chinese government would have to learn this covertly, on the street level.

That being said, the ethnic Indian communities in Malaysia and Singapore, no matter how negative some of their traits, they could never match the Indians. We cannot equate the overseas Indian communities with actual Indians. Because they have learnt to live as a minority community for generations. And they have access to much better education than the average Indians in India. Take Kishore Mabubani for example, he is nothing like the Indians we typically laugh at. This is a model statesman, who was able to serve as the President of the UN Security Council in 2001-2002. He considers himself Singaporean, not Indian. There are practically no Jai Hinds or Bhakts in Malaysia and Singapore. Their kind are too alien to thrive in those societies. Finding them in these countries would be the same as trying to find FLG communities there.

Therefore, learning about the Indian mind in Malaysian and Singapore can only get us to around level 5 at most. It would give a good foundation. But Indians are actually beyond level 10. So, if the Chinese government is looking for a crash-course. I would think that the best consultants would have to come from South Asia. Learning from Pakistan would be a good start. Pakistan had much experience being on the receiving end of Indian violence and propaganda.
Click to expand...

This is why the racial superiority theory is bunk. What determines a nation is not race, but culture. Even the ancient Chinese recognized that barbarians who integrated with China are members of the Huaxia.
 
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