Well we need to ask them why they can't show the world a single proof of their mighty little army winning wars since dinosaur era except the war they fought standing behind us against the pakis.
Whindians are funny little online warriors.
Ladakh Flash Point
- Thread starter Mt1701d
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Whindians are funny little online warriors.
Now they are burning own shirt tie to boycott china? nice matching tie, but they got the suit wrong, replaced it with black shirt in that picture on top of that bamboo.
Hopefully they burn everything screaming "jai hind", six months later they will buy these again anyway.
Now here is a thought and this is based on looking at the maps and satellite images of the area of the incident.
We all know that the LoAC is not a hard and fast line but more of a fluid zone that get fixed by hard points, established by the sides coming up against each other and pushing.
It is easy to see why the knee of land by that bend in the river would be attractive to the Chinese commanders and why they would order their units to secure it as a hard point.
India no doubt would also feel the same and realise just how great would be the disadvantage to them if the Chinese were to take control and fortify it.
Now, just look at the map and pictures and ask yourself this.
How exactly do the Indians cross over to the Chinese side to try and conduct an operation?
Only two ways I can see
1) Cross the River
2) Mountaineer across the mountainside/valley wall
Both of course at night in the dark.
So, we know it was an attack from the Indian forces, both Modi and Chinese Foreign Ministry agree that Indian forces crossed into Chinese held territory and that no Chinese entered Indian held territory. Remember also that "Attack" is a mission catagory and that it is clear that the Indian forces intended to take and secure the knee of land within the river bend. Even if not a single blow was landed, it would still be catagorised as an attack.
We also know the result. Twenty Indians,including senior officers dead, nearly eighty injured and at least ten taken prisoner, with minimal or no casualties on the Chinese side. Other than in a Kung Fu movie, what set of events could realistically produce this sort of outcome.
1) Chinese forces knew that the Indians commando style raid was coming and sprang a perfect ambush on them. Possible but still sounds like Hollywood.
2) The River crossing was a disaster. Yeah - to me this seems far more likely, that something went wrong in the river which resulted in dozens of men ending up in the water. These rivers are dangerous, distant rains can send instant torrents downstream and distant rockfalls can send tidal waves a long way as well. Even the chance of substandard boats/dingys for the night crossing.
If the falling down a cliff part has merit, than maybe it was a climb across the steep valley wall to reach the Chinese positions and they all came down into the water as they approached - assume they would all have been tied together at that point.
Either way, to way it does make a lot more sense of what we know.
To be honest, I would really put my money on something like 2, and that other than trying to effect rescue, no Chinese soldiers were involved in any combat, whatsoever.
We all know that the LoAC is not a hard and fast line but more of a fluid zone that get fixed by hard points, established by the sides coming up against each other and pushing.
It is easy to see why the knee of land by that bend in the river would be attractive to the Chinese commanders and why they would order their units to secure it as a hard point.
India no doubt would also feel the same and realise just how great would be the disadvantage to them if the Chinese were to take control and fortify it.
Now, just look at the map and pictures and ask yourself this.
How exactly do the Indians cross over to the Chinese side to try and conduct an operation?
Only two ways I can see
1) Cross the River
2) Mountaineer across the mountainside/valley wall
Both of course at night in the dark.
So, we know it was an attack from the Indian forces, both Modi and Chinese Foreign Ministry agree that Indian forces crossed into Chinese held territory and that no Chinese entered Indian held territory. Remember also that "Attack" is a mission catagory and that it is clear that the Indian forces intended to take and secure the knee of land within the river bend. Even if not a single blow was landed, it would still be catagorised as an attack.
We also know the result. Twenty Indians,including senior officers dead, nearly eighty injured and at least ten taken prisoner, with minimal or no casualties on the Chinese side. Other than in a Kung Fu movie, what set of events could realistically produce this sort of outcome.
1) Chinese forces knew that the Indians commando style raid was coming and sprang a perfect ambush on them. Possible but still sounds like Hollywood.
2) The River crossing was a disaster. Yeah - to me this seems far more likely, that something went wrong in the river which resulted in dozens of men ending up in the water. These rivers are dangerous, distant rains can send instant torrents downstream and distant rockfalls can send tidal waves a long way as well. Even the chance of substandard boats/dingys for the night crossing.
If the falling down a cliff part has merit, than maybe it was a climb across the steep valley wall to reach the Chinese positions and they all came down into the water as they approached - assume they would all have been tied together at that point.
Either way, to way it does make a lot more sense of what we know.
To be honest, I would really put my money on something like 2, and that other than trying to effect rescue, no Chinese soldiers were involved in any combat, whatsoever.
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I think it's the right move to not blast the (lack of) casualties everywhere.
If Modi wants to use it to deescalate, it would benefit China. For Chinese people, there's no bad blood with random third world countries, if no soldiers died then its just a routine job well done. There won't be any outcry to keep attacking India because most people don't care about India.
However, if Indian hyper nationalist want to read it as a sign of weakness and push more, that's also beneficial to China because of the vast gap in military strength. If an Indian attack is spearheaded by nationalists, it will be much worse coordinated than even a normal Indian response.
As far as I see, the Chinese government is interested in a limited war at the border and joint operation with Pakistan to counter Indian advances in Kashmir, but the people really aren't interested at all.
A botched large scale Indian incursion (perhaps using those 20km/h T-72s they recently bought it in a fit of anger) would give China pretext to launch it's own equivalent of desert storm. Its easy to see that many hawks would be interested in this.
If Modi wants to use it to deescalate, it would benefit China. For Chinese people, there's no bad blood with random third world countries, if no soldiers died then its just a routine job well done. There won't be any outcry to keep attacking India because most people don't care about India.
However, if Indian hyper nationalist want to read it as a sign of weakness and push more, that's also beneficial to China because of the vast gap in military strength. If an Indian attack is spearheaded by nationalists, it will be much worse coordinated than even a normal Indian response.
As far as I see, the Chinese government is interested in a limited war at the border and joint operation with Pakistan to counter Indian advances in Kashmir, but the people really aren't interested at all.
A botched large scale Indian incursion (perhaps using those 20km/h T-72s they recently bought it in a fit of anger) would give China pretext to launch it's own equivalent of desert storm. Its easy to see that many hawks would be interested in this.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I too think that the vast majority of Indian casualties resulted from misadventure on their part rather than direct PLA action.
But I am pretty sure that there was combat between the two sides, since that is one of the few things both China and India seem to agree on in terms of what happened.
If the Indians suffered a catastrophe before even reaching the PLA position, there would not have been any clash to start with, and I am sure Modi, keen to avoid self immolation from playing with fire, would have not wasted the opportunity to class this as a tragic accident to underly the dangers Indian boarder troops face everyday and their heroism for taking such risks to keep the nation safe and all that feel good boiler plate stuff and there would never have been a crisis to start with.
I think the calamity befell the Indians as they were retreating/fleeing after loosing the fight with the PLA and suffering its initial 3 fatalities. And that the speed of their retreat no doubt was a key factor in how they managed to mishap so catastrophically as to suffer more than 5 times as many fatalities fleeing as fighting.
I have said throughout that I do not rule out fatalities on the PLA side, and that seems a likely cause for both the PLA’s lethal response and the remarkably ‘enthusiastic’ flight of the Indians.
I still think the most likely scenario was that the dead Indian colonel and maybe a couple hardcore sympathisers went out that night determined to either provoke a full on war, or at least score a notable parting ‘victory’ worth bragging about as they were probably ordered to pull out in the morning as per the high level de-escalation agreements between China and India.
As such, I find reports of PLA fatalities from knife wounds quite plausible, as it makes sense that the dead colonel might have decided to use a combat knife rather than the normal rods and clubs if he was intending on murder from the offset.
The colonel knifing a PLA officer or soldier, that would have been enough to justify a lethal response by the PLA as per ROE.
If the colonel was acting rogue and did not inform his men of his true intentions, the fact that he pulled a knife and then got quickly and obviously killed in response and triggering a level of violence from the PLA that the Indians never saw before would have contributed massively to his men’s moral totally collapsing, and explain how they ended up in such a headlong rush to flee that so many were killed and injured in the process.
As per SOP, there would have been at least one professional PLA cameraman on hand documenting all this in top spec HD detail.
All the Chinese negotiators needed to do was turn off the lights and run the video to completely obliterate the Indian government’s resolve to press this matter. This is probably a huge factor on why Indian government officials have been so remarkably tight lipped and careful in their comments on the events. They are desperately scared that they might give China reason to release the video, which will not only show the Indians instigating the violence, but also their humbling defeat and humiliating flight.
If such a video ever got out, it’s pretty much guaranteed political obliteration for Modi and his BJP, as such, one can easily understand both his desire to sweep this under the rig as quickly as he can, and China’s unusual passivity on the matter.
China is perfectly happy to passively help Modi back out of this mess of his own making with some semblance of dignity left, not because China is such a naive, turn the other cheek Christian country, but because China now owns Modi. If he gets uppity again, China can end him with a single press of the play button.
I would not be surprised if China and India suddenly have an unexpected warming of relations in the not to distant future.
solarz
Brigadier
The official statement by Zhang Shuili talks about India violating agreement and intruding onto Chinese territory.
I am certain that if something as despicable as what you described, that the Indians attacked Chinese soldiers in the middle of a negotiation, the PLA would be saying something entirely different, and would be taking much stronger retaliatory measures.
The way I see it, the statement from Zhang Shuili could be applied to any number of previous incidents, barring the comment about casualties. This tells me that were it not for the large Indian casualties, this incident would not have been remarkable.
This isn't about the border. This is about the Indian Ocean. A lot of satellite images have been posted of the tactical picture. But this is the strategic chess board China is playing on:
I agree with analysts like Sawhney. China doesn't want "stability at the border" anymore. That offer expired the moment India joined the Quad. Instead, China formed a 20 year plan that began 10 years ago. We're just at the 50% mark. So I doubt China is looking for a hot-conflict (at least for now.) This is still just positioning.
The open question is, will India's ideological blindness allow it to think realistically? I think not unless the BJP loses the election... but how can the BJP lose with Congress as its opponent? Case in point:
Maybe... But keep in mind that the Indians saw their captured pilot on TV last year... and Modi still got re-elected.
But they didn't.
I love how they are still pushing the narrative that India captured Chinese troops without even providing a number on how many were captured. Assuming the premise of the article were true — would India have released the Chinese captives if China refused to reciprocate?
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