Ladakh Flash Point

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manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
sukhoi_30MKI said:
various sources available along with interviews all over YouTube.
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What is this? India's version of Donald Trump's "You know it; I know it; we all know it" as evidence? LOL
sukhoi_30MKI said:
How many Xi bucks for PLA for retreating now from Ladhakh?
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For teaching India a lesson so they accept a face-saving treaty? Not that much; Xi bucks are handed out based on the competence of the rival defeated so basically enough for some chips and a beer.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Basically the situation could truly be as simple as this.

1. Both sides mount up further aggression along this disputed section (out of three well known disputed sections this being the most westerly) between 2013 to 2019.

2. China is uncomfortable with Hindu extremism and growing Indian nationalism/chauvinism that resulted in India getting in between Bhutan China talks, causing much drama in Doklam, then taking away Kashmiri self determination, then indirectly threatening CPEC and enhanced engagement with Pakistan (a very important regional ally for China if nothing more than having better access to Iran and the Middle Eastern energy).

3. China observes increased Indian roadbuilding and military infrastructure - helipad/s and permanent camps located very close to the edge of the wishful buffer.

4. China decides to finally make a move and commanded PLA to firmly take everything up to 1992/93 LAC - finger 4 and pp13/14 gora hotsrpings etc.

5. India probably did not expect China to act so decisively and proceed to run around like a headless chicken (media and gov) while IA fail to capture Chinese territory despite attempt/s and fail to unseat PLA.

6. After so many rounds of confidential talks with PLA and China undeniably holding a monumentally huge edge (superior military, superior economy, superior industry, superior positions, superior resources, IA failures), India may have relinquished and backtracked to actually finally fucking observing their own 1992 1993 agreement without patrolling past finger 4.

7. China agrees to keep those details on a low profile and remove PLA from fingers 4 to 8 as India agrees to never set foot back beyond finger 3. India's agreement is as good as agreeing to China's 1959 offer. That's a fact right? It's impossible to deny this even for the dumbest Jai Hinds.

8. India not stepping beyond finger 3 effectively renders their formal claim up to finger 8 as more worthless than Zimbabwean dollar in 2010. But if India or Modi admit to this, there will be Jai Hind outrage. So how to cope how to cope? hmmm. Seems like they want to misrepresent the situation as PLA withdrawing. Okay if that floats your boat and you want to deny India lost finger 3 to 8 privileges i.e. India's 70 year long claim then sure whatever.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
India has always respected the 1992 agreement. That is exactly why india pushed for a buffer zone at the talks. As i have explained, there are various reasons why it is not feasible for Indian troops to regularly patrol up to finger 8, so a buffer zone is the best way India has of enforcing its perception.
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This statement is verbose despite being a few sentences long and inaccurate.

India has never respected 1992 agreement until now. They patrolled up to finger 8 however rare it is and they claimed up to finger 8 to justify conducting patrols and building up to LAC like China has done with one road.

Buffer zone established now has been the only time the buffer zone has been upheld. How else do you think everyone's been seeing so much footage of IA and PLA pushing and arguing and hugging it out in this very region for years? How else would there have been confrontations if there was a buffer zone? China's road does NOT reach finger 4. India's been building as heavily as China beyond their previous wishful buffer which wasn't observed and carried no agreement on building. It's a buffer not an agreement. Even the agreement did not specify buildings but both sides built up to the edges of their buffer areas. China was certainly concerned at the combination of Hindu extremism taking over India and the increased Indian building which are not limited to roads like the Chinese ones were until after confrontation when China also started building permanent camps closer and helipads.
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
Basically the situation could truly be as simple as this.

1. Both sides mount up further aggression along this disputed section (out of three well known disputed sections this being the most westerly) between 2013 to 2019.

2. China is uncomfortable with Hindu extremism and growing Indian nationalism/chauvinism that resulted in India getting in between Bhutan China talks, causing much drama in Doklam, then taking away Kashmiri self determination, then indirectly threatening CPEC and enhanced engagement with Pakistan (a very important regional ally for China if nothing more than having better access to Iran and the Middle Eastern energy).

3. China observes increased Indian roadbuilding and military infrastructure - helipad/s and permanent camps located very close to the edge of the wishful buffer.

4. China decides to finally make a move and commanded PLA to firmly take everything up to 1992/93 LAC - finger 4 and pp13/14 gora hotsrpings etc.

5. India probably did not expect China to act so decisively and proceed to run around like a headless chicken (media and gov) while IA fail to capture Chinese territory despite attempt/s and fail to unseat PLA.

6. After so many rounds of confidential talks with PLA and China undeniably holding a monumentally huge edge (superior military, superior economy, superior industry, superior positions, superior resources, IA failures), India may have relinquished and backtracked to actually finally fucking observing their own 1992 1993 agreement without patrolling past finger 4.

7. China agrees to keep those details on a low profile and remove PLA from fingers 4 to 8 as India agrees to never set foot back beyond finger 3. India's agreement is as good as agreeing to China's 1959 offer. That's a fact right? It's impossible to deny this even for the dumbest Jai Hinds.

8. India not stepping beyond finger 3 effectively renders their formal claim up to finger 8 as more worthless than Zimbabwean dollar in 2010. But if India or Modi admit to this, there will be Jai Hind outrage. So how to cope how to cope? hmmm. Seems like they want to misrepresent the situation as PLA withdrawing. Okay if that floats your boat and you want to deny India lost finger 3 to 8 privileges i.e. India's 70 year long claim then sure whatever.
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You have yet to show any evidence that india ever violated the 1992 lac, let alone patrol up to finger 4. By your logic, China is also giving up its claims to finger 3. And you are completely forgetting that the entire glawan valley is included within the 1959 line. So if China really held so many bargaining chips, why didn't it force India to vacate Galwan and stop building bridges there? The fact is China tried to change the status quo and failed. You have yet to present evidence India did the same. So there is no way this disengagement deal is a victory for China, when it was mostly India that got what it wanted,
 
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longmarch

Junior Member
Registered Member
TheFoozyOne said:
You surely have the Indian gymnastic mindset that always wins, no matter the reality. Too bad Chinese have a more nuanced and realistic mindset.

Now repeat after me to get a “winner” mindset: Jai Hind! India superpowa numba one! Jai Hind! Blablabla 100+ PLA killed Blablabla

See! Now you are a “winner” like all Indians! So easy!

What a convoluted way you have to keep repeating the terms “loser” and “defeat” for China as if that’s the reality. You really are shameless to portray yourself as someone who cares about China.

Btw Soviet Union fell because it lost the narrative at home, not because it lost the narrative in foreign countries. China wins the narrative at home all the time, so as a spiritual Indian you don’t need to worry about that.
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Oh, so you do control the narrative at home. Then why the claim that releasing factual information would put CCP rule in danger, and full scale war become inevitable? Mental gymnastics?

Now I have some newly hatched members debating with me, while smarter, established ones have "disengaged".

The notion that India would thank you for delaying the release of information is ludicrous. Just like China expected the world to thank you for killing tens of millions of your own babies. It's insane in a modern world, it's an insult to your own identify and existence. Why don't you just kill youself? At least Indians are proud enough not to do that. You have been crawling for too long and don't even realize it.

People like Hu Xijin are doing great harm to your country, he needs to be fired.

You are not going to win this debate.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
twineedle said:
Both sides have evidence supporting their claims. China presented the video(though not the entire sequence of events, just clips) while satellite imagery appears to support India's claim that it was China that violated the lac.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362761784403189767

Keep in mind that evidence is not proof, and since none of us were there, we do not know exactly what happened. I just think it is ridiculous that so many here are trying to claim India was the aggressor, and that makes the disengagement deal a loss for India and a victory for China.
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The Indians were building tents around the area when the agreement was to vacate the area. Even if Commander Qi did go 50 meters beyond the LAC line, that doesn’t justify the escalation of violence as we’ve seen in the video. What about the claims that Col. Babu and his contingents were unarmed and ambushed by a much larger PLA force?
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
This statement is verbose despite being a few sentences long and inaccurate.

India has never respected 1992 agreement until now. They patrolled up to finger 8 however rare it is and they claimed up to finger 8 to justify conducting patrols and building up to LAC like China has done with one road.

Buffer zone established now has been the only time the buffer zone has been upheld. How else do you think everyone's been seeing so much footage of IA and PLA pushing and arguing and hugging it out in this very region for years? How else would there have been confrontations if there was a buffer zone? China's road does NOT reach finger 4. India's been building as heavily as China beyond their previous wishful buffer which wasn't observed and carried no agreement on building. It's a buffer not an agreement. Even the agreement did not specify buildings but both sides built up to the edges of their buffer areas. China was certainly concerned at the combination of Hindu extremism taking over India and the increased Indian building which are not limited to roads like the Chinese ones were until after confrontation when China also started building permanent camps closer and helipads.
Click to expand...
If Indian troops did indeed reach finger 8, I am pretty sure there are even more examples of PLA soldiers reaching 3, and even further. You still have not provided evidence from a single example of Indian troops reaching finger 8.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
You should ask yourself why China never built any permanent structures in that area until may of last year. Then you will know what the status quo ante was. And if India had accepted China's 1959 line, it would have completely vacated Galwan, and removed Dhan Singh Thapa post form behind finger 3. These were actually CHinese proposals in the talks, before India occupied those heights. The 1959 claim line is very different than the lac agreed to in 1992, which is shown on google maps. If anything, 1992 was more of a compromise, where India agreed to the current LAC with buffer zones in certain sectors.
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China wanted a compromise with the 1959 agreement. The 1959 agreement itself was to say let's get over this conflict right now with a split inside the dispute in contrast to India's insistence India gets everything.

In that respect the LAC agreement in the 1990s was a rehashed 1959 offer in that it splits the dispute within the stretch.

India finally has agreed to this and more importantly they agreed to observing this only this year.

Time will tell whether India actually continues to observe the agreement. China will because this is essentially China's own offer with slight differences since the 1950s. India may choose to violate and inflame in future who knows but for now India is behind finger 3 which is essentially the 1959 offer and the 1992 agreement.

This might have been considered by CCP as good enough for China as it is civilisation rebuilding and regards India as still pretty far from even beginning this journey in proper. If India steps beyond finger 3 in future, another confrontation will begin and we'll see then how far we are apart.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
If Indian troops did indeed reach finger 8, I am pretty sure there are even more examples of PLA soldiers reaching 3, and even further. You still have not provided evidence from a single example of Indian troops reaching finger 8.
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How on earth do you expect me to prove to you IA patrol up to finger 8 in the past? The best I can do is provide Indian government individuals lamenting the fact they have lost the privilege of patrolling up to finger 8.

Combine this with the fact that India used to and still formally claims up to finger 8 and retired Indian army men talking about IA patrolling past finger 8. I don't want to waste 2 hours scrolling through months and months of twitter posts to provide this secondary evidence but most already know this is true and I can't provide drone footage of IA sitting on a picnic at finger 8 right?

Use some common sense and interpret.

Anyway even if we suppose IA never patrolled to finger 8 at any point in history, the fact remains that India claims up to finger 8 and these claims are essentially no more. China claims to finger 3 but has offered settlement around finger 4 depth since the 20th ccentury. While PLA will observe the buffer (I'm certain they will since they've nothing to gain or lose only to react to India), I suppose the CCP thinks this deal is good enough if India agrees to stay behind finger 3 for good now.
 
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