Ladakh Flash Point

siegecrossbow said:

If the PLA video is an attempt at gaslighting, patios, propaganda, and carefully edited then why don’t the Indians make a rebuttal? Why not release a video debunking the Chinese claims? Why is there silence front the Indian Army on this? Why?

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ougoah said:

The whole "disengagement" could be nothing more than a fancy dressed up Indian capitulation to the very same 1992/3 LAC agreement which is basically a slow acceptance of China's 1959 offer with possibly small amendments to details.

Disengagement for now seems to be total IA and PLA absence between fingers 3 and 8. India claims up to finger 8 and China claims up to finger 3.

So many rounds of negotiation after with IA being able to militarily do nothing to remove PLA from making good of 1992/3 agreement. And after that disengagement to create this buffer on the disputed zone.

You know what all this much more likely adds to? India quietly agreeing to observe 1992/3 agreement for good which means most importantly to ALL that India's claim to finger 8 is either formally or informally no more!

It doesn't matter what's said, it matters what done. While the buffer exists, that might be satisfactory to China as long as India's claims and patrols up to finger 8 stop for good. Now they can patrol up to and behind finger 3 but no further, the borderline China agrees to.

In return, China does need to help India keep this low profile and remove PLA from even finger 8. But from China's POV no Indians along fingers 3 (east of) to 8 is as good as 1959 Chinese offer being accepted.

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ougoah said:

@twineedle @Kakyan @longmarch

Why would India's opposition and parts of its sane population lament the loss of India's claims up to finger 8 and India's prior access to finger 8. Something twinneedle himself admitted to despite funnily enough arguing against it. Recall that "rarely patrolled up to" is not the same as "never patrolled up to".

Finger 8 is where India claims up to and patrolled up to. It no longer patrols up to it after PLA took action and it will not either after disengagement. Again these are simply facts.

LAC agreement from 1992 has so little bearing on this current issue, it was first employed by Modi as the face saver to convince that nothing is happening as he would often say and then be humiliated by.

LAC agreement is worthless if IA patrol beyond finger 4 and claim up to finger 8. Meanwhile China iirc claims up to finger 3 but finger 4 is worth settling if India agrees. Recall that China was willing to go down the middle since Mao's era. India in the past always wanted the entire stretch.

This is the source of the disagreement and looks like India will soon if not already agreed to China's 1950s deal offer of going roughly down the middle i.e. splitting dispute into two parts as opposed to India's insistence it gets the entire stretch.

fucking idiots still confused and lying on purpose about small but important details. Check out that Jai Hind distraction tactic. Just namedropping shit like LAC 1992/3 agreement without grasping any of the nuance or intentionally avoiding.

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longmarch said:

Let me just add this.

PLA, or the whole people of China, need to change mindset.

Repeat after me, CHANGE MINDSET.

You really need to get out of the mentality of two-centrary humiliation, the mentality of victimhood. You are recognized by all but a few, a full-fledged superpower, and that includes, developed European countries. You can stand a full scale trade war against America, victorious. If you can't take care of yourself and defend your interests, nobody can.

You need to defend your honor. because there are countries across this world look up to you, expect you to stand up to the bully.

You need to ditch the loser mentality wherever your interests are in. You need to have the mindset of the "stronger". Han dynasty and Tang dynasty had this mindset. Song just doesn't. Ming, yes in the first half.

Mao restored this mindset with Korean War. Deng significantly weakened it with his economic "reform", where everything is counted by the money. To this day, you are still felling into this trap and couldn't get out of it, thus not able to think properly. Your body has grown into an adult, but your mind and behavior is still teenager.

There is a benefit of claiming "developing" status, but that benefit is deminishing quickly. I expect that to change soon.

So, stop burying inside great firewall and middle kingdom, thinking everything is gonna be ok.

You claim soft power doesn't exist and China's image doesn't matter. Yet at the same time you fight for the perception of win or lose. This doesn't make any sense.

You are a full fledged economic and military superpower, but your soft power are soringly lagging behind. And you tell me you don't care?

Take a look at the status of overseas Chinese. Social-econimocally, they are doing relatively well. But politically, they are at the bottom of the ladder, where every other race can take advantage of. Even politicians of your own race don't fight for you. Because they, just as you, have same loser, weaker mentality. I got to ask, is everything just about money?

Now, 5 eyes are pushing the Xinjiang narrative. And what your government has been doing? They behave like "this is none of your business". You have to do better than that.

As a superpower, you need to have the capability to control the narrative . And you are not even trying.

A duly elected government can be toppled by just a narrative. That's soft power. That's how mighty soviet union fell. They lost the narrative.

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twineedle said:

Because at this point, does it really matter? Both sides have disengaged form pp14 back in July. Obviously India has one version of events, China has another.

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twineedle said:

Because China clearly attempted to change the status quo by building permanent constructions in Pangong and other sectors. Following 1962, fingers 4-8 was mostly a buffer zone, although China built a road between fingers 4-8 around 2000. China respected the buffer zone in Pangong and other areas until early last year, triggering the crisis. As per the disengagement deal, China pulled back, restoring status quo ante as of 2019, exactly what India wanted. The more you post, you show the less you know about the LAC.

BTW, if Indian troops did regularly patrol up to finger 8 as you mentioned, surely there must be some video or photographic evidence? After all the skirmishes around foxhole point on finger 4 of 2017 and 2020 were recorded by both sides.. Why would China even allow Indian troops to get that far? Please think before you post.

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ougoah said:

Buddy. China's building mirrors India's building. This nonsense excuse is chicken or egg cop-out. Both sides were building up to leading towards LAC. In fact India's building was much celebrated by Indians. Within the dispute, China only built a road. How are you an expert on LAC (also a chinki expert on your Jai Hind forums I'm sure) when you don't even understand that the LAC agreement never specified building. It only specified force structures and where the line of LAC is.

Is the above correct? Show me where on the 1992/3 agreement does it say no road buidling on your side? The LAC basically wanted a small buffer zone but everything before that is informally recognised as the other's while each side maintained their formal claims. China building a road leading to finger 8 and slightly beyond is kilometers within China's side of LAC as per the agreement. The road doesn't even reach finger 4 or the wishful buffer in the past which was never established or observed.

You are being embarrassed here worse than Modi.

So we now understand (challenge me with evidence otherwise) that:

1. China is entitled to build a road within its side of LAC not that LAC even restricts this.
2. India is entitled as well and have been roadbuilding to lead up to its side of the old wishful buffer
3. None of this violate any Indian invented "status quo"
4. Interpreted violation of Indian "status quo" does not have any consequences agreed upon.
5. India's formal claims run up to finger 8
6. China's formal claims run up to finger 3 but China's been wanting to split it down (with slight favour towards China) since 1959.

With the disengagement, it is entirely possible that India is slowly and quietly agreeing to 1959 deal from China which is reflected by 1992/1993 LAC agreement which runs the border through finger 4... coincidently also the exact same points where the PLA was ordered to occupy up to perhaps in an effort to force the Indians to accept the 1959/1992 deal for good.

Why do I say this? Well because PLA took it and IA unable to reverse AND India's claim up to finger 8 is basically now worthless as IA cannot step foot east of finger 3 as per current disengagement agreement.

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siegecrossbow said:

Does anyone else find twineedle’s belief that there can be two different events of the story disturbing? Do we have proof of parallel universe or something? This isn’t the Middle Ages where we rely on eyewitness evidence. We have recording device now. There can only be one truth.

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