Ladakh Flash Point

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Only jet lost was an obsolete Mig21 which was cheaper than US Global Hawk shot down by Iran.
LOLOLOL Someone shot down your jet with your pilot inside, whooped his ass and send him back with bruises all over him. They also got a video of him complementing the tea they serve in prison in Pakistan. In response, Indian forces shot down their own helicopter killing 7 and your response is that the jet is cheap so it's ok? LOLOL You can't fail with standards and expectations that low, can you?
1000 sq kn terrotiry has been already busted as it has been proved China was in control fo that area for decades as shown in google earth images from 2003-5
I dunno about busted. Some Indians say yes, some say no, some of them official, some of them media; India's a total mess so who knows? They all have their own evidence; you're just another Indian adding to the mess.
60 POWs also not confirmed officially by China or India but only anonynous media reprts from Indian media
Ok, there were so many instances of China returning entire groups of POWs I don't know which one is confirmed and which one is not.
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This one confirmed or not confirmed? Damn, India's such a mess.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Completely wrong. India used T-71B3 as Russian itself said T-90 is not suitable for such competions and which is why Russia itself has Never Ever fielded a single of their own T-90 at the biathlon.
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I never claimed India did not ever use T-90 at Biathlon. I said India came 5th jointly in tank biathlon 2018 among 24 nations and I also said Russia never T-90 at biathlon as it is unsuitable for competition due to slow changing gears.

Only jet lost was an obsolete Mig21 which was cheaper than US Global Hawk shot down by Iran.

1000 sq kn terrotiry has been already busted as it has been proved China was in control fo that area for decades as shown in google earth images from 2003-5

60 POWs also not confirmed officially by China or India but only anonynous media reprts from Indian media

Well the first two quotes totally squash your creditability. First you claimed that India uses Russian T-71B3 in retaliation to my mentioning that India uses T90. And at that time you said what I have mentioned is completely wrong which in my limited understanding of English, that means you disagree with my entire assessment including the fact that I mentioned India uses the T90..... And then suddenly, you say that you never claim India did not ever use T-90.

So in my book, that is what I say you have lost all creditability in my mind.

Now you blalantly discounted the Mig21 (piloted by an Indian pilot) that was downed by Pakistan, simply because that aircraft was obsolete and cheap... And in that simple sentence, we know that in your mind, it was okay to lose that old bird. However, lets look into that argument in multiple folds.

1) If that Mig21 was that obsolete, then why is the Indian Air Force in their infinite wisdom still using it... was it because India, in the incredible leadership of Modi and his gang and so many years of building... cannot afford more good aircrafts?
2) Why after so many years of building the economy, the Indian's cannot seemed to go about buying better aircrafts... or where is your made in india's LCA?
3) What about the pilot that piloted that 'obsolete' Mig21? Is he not an Indian pilot... or was he a person of lower caste?
4) If the Mig21 was that obsolete, then why did the Indian send in that aircraft... a case of looking down on your enemy? Its alright if you looked down on your enemy, if you never get shot down... its downright stupid if you looked down on your enemy and get your ass whooped though.
5) In your analogy then it is not okay if the aircraft being shot down is expensive? So you are using cost as a factor to determine your aircraft? I pity the pilots who risked their life to defend India.

With all those in mind... it makes taking you seriously getting more and more difficult.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Look at how india perform in the PISA test. The test that measures national intellect of their students and corrleatd to IQ.

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View attachment 68841

View attachment 68842


india in the sewer while China shines in glory. ( indian IQ 75, Average Chinese IQ 105)

Now you know why so many indian trolls on the internet and india can not do anything right while China is becoming the Hyper Power?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Then india decided to quit the test all together from 2012 until now.

Which soviet leader does this remind you off ? :rolleyes: :D

"
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,
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,
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and
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are all travelling together in a railway carriage. Unexpectedly, the train stops. Lenin suggests: "Perhaps we should announce a
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, so that workers and peasants will fix the problem." Stalin puts his head out of the window and shouts, "If the train does not start moving, the driver will be shot!" (an allusion to the
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). But the train doesn't start moving. Khrushchev then shouts, "Let's take the rails from behind the train and use them to lay the tracks in front" (an allusion to Khrushchev's various reorganizations). But still the train doesn't move. Then Brezhnev says, "Comrades, Comrades, let's draw the curtains, turn on the gramophone and pretend we're moving!"

:D

Take it easy chauvinist. I'm not Indian but you're behaviour is so lacking in class and intelligence I'm ashamed you're Chinese if anything :rolleyes:
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Some of us have explored a few theories in varying detail but it looks fairly normal and while none of us expected China to disengage without Indian acknowledgement of changed LAC in China's favour (since PLA did successfully settle quite a bit of the disputed land over at the western dispute for about a year without IA being able to push it back by force), it remains to be seen what the benefit from the bargain actually is. If indeed what's being said by both sides is true to the extent that what's said is actually the totality of what is happening.

Since the forward position occupied by PLA seems to be something that can be held as Indian relations with China deteriorated anyway (so nothing for the CCP to redeem there) and the IA tried but failed to really address the military problem I mean how could they really. Then what honestly is to even be gained by China by disengaging? China's "price" paid is deteriorating relations with India which directly caused Indian attempts to economically hurt China with whatever means they have. That'll no doubt continue to happen. A new Indian government may reveal questionable dealings if there were any here but only time will tell.

The only other thing I could think of is China expecting a lot of new things to happen in the western Pacific. Or it's original intention was always to get India to stop trying to take its claims ... by doing exactly the same thing and then putting a stop to it. I mean prior to this IA did patrol past finger 4 and in Galwan valley. Now they don't. The same can be said for China but if the intention was always to keep the dispute a barren no man's land, then whichever or both sides have managed it.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
PLA sitting there for a whole year could have been in the hopes that India would actually relinquish and just agree to new LAC. They obviously didn't. Since China isn't interested in actually fighting a war, they could just keep sitting there and would be an open invite for drama and trouble or it could get the next best thing, have India agree to not step foot on it anymore if PLA moves back.

Staying there isn't the better option since India will not relinquish no matter what. So PLA isn't exactly going to go to war since it already captured all it wanted to but India diplomatically will continue to inflame it if not also perform harassment where and when it can. While the PLA can't move into India to capture more territory which would be actually against the point (contrary to what Jai Hinds might think of China) but staying put means dealing with constant IA intrusions and harassment and Indian political pressure as the issue continues to occupy unwanted attention.

In such a position, demanding India stop attempting to take their claims is a fairly decent improvement on the situation prior to 2020. Of course the downside is that China must also stop taking their claim, something the PLA already did but contended by India regardless of how under PLA control the disputed territory is.

This doesn't even require CCP thinking it needs to stabilise one side to focus on another. The Americans may be restless but it doesn't even need to factor in.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I can't agree with that theory. They sat their entire winter & this realization came all of a sudden?

It's more complex than that. Read the entirety and my other posts about disengagement.

The point of sitting there for so long was to wait until India relinquished. Whether or not they do was a gamble. You can't sit there a day and give up for example right. So PLA sat there for as long as it was necessary to determine beyond any doubt that India was not going to relinquish and despite all the land being taken, they will still say no we still claim it even if you have absolute control over it. They will perform intrusions and it's impossible for PLA to really guard the entire border. Even if they did, they couldn't guard other borders shared with India which the IA will no doubt create drama in as long as the PLA is sitting on Indian claimed lands.

There was no realisation, this would have been all thought through and known. The only unknown was whether or not India would relinquish and how they would act and how long they would take to relinquish. Maybe CCP estimated a few months and after a full year they realised nothing will change.

If PLA was to continue sitting there, India may never capitulate and constantly cause issue for China to respond to. This stretch may or may not be worth that but count how far this area is to New Delhi as compared to the nearest larger/even tier 2 Chinese city.

The worst outcome for China is still better than 2019 conditions where Indian troops were violating Chinese claimed LAC increasingly frequent and confrontations common while PLA did the same to India. The worst outcome being, India doesn't get to step into Chinese claims while China agrees to do the same, thus leaving this stretch in the same state as it was after the border war. If anything it seems both sides have grown up a bit since last time's trigger happy military commanders. IA's commander that started the fight back in June notwithstanding.

The downsides for China isn't really being able to take this land, China still claims it. It's just less important to China. But CPEC and Kashmir are just going to be further from China's reach without the additional buffer. That's the real downside. As long as India doesn't get it, it's as good as nobodies but if India were to open a new front (like they did with Doklam) and cause trouble for China yet again, then it may appear that agreeing to disengagement here provided no deterrence to India.
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
It's more complex than that. Read the entirety and my other posts about disengagement.

The point of sitting there for so long was to wait until India relinquished. Whether or not they do was a gamble. You can't sit there a day and give up for example right. So PLA sat there for as long as it was necessary to determine beyond any doubt that India was not going to relinquish and despite all the land being taken, they will still say no we still claim it even if you have absolute control over it. They will perform intrusions and it's impossible for PLA to really guard the entire border. Even if they did, they couldn't guard other borders shared with India which the IA will no doubt create drama in as long as the PLA is sitting on Indian claimed lands.

There was no realisation, this would have been all thought through and known. The only unknown was whether or not India would relinquish and how they would act and how long they would take to relinquish. Maybe CCP estimated a few months and after a full year they realised nothing will change.

If PLA was to continue sitting there, India may never capitulate and constantly cause issue for China to respond to. This stretch may or may not be worth that but count how far this area is to New Delhi as compared to the nearest larger/even tier 2 Chinese city.

The worst outcome for China is still better than 2019 conditions where Indian troops were violating Chinese claimed LAC increasingly frequent and confrontations common while PLA did the same to India. The worst outcome being, India doesn't get to step into Chinese claims while China agrees to do the same, thus leaving this stretch in the same state as it was after the border war. If anything it seems both sides have grown up a bit since last time's trigger happy military commanders. IA's commander that started the fight back in June notwithstanding.

The downsides for China isn't really being able to take this land, China still claims it. It's just less important to China. But CPEC and Kashmir are just going to be further from China's reach without the additional buffer. That's the real downside. As long as India doesn't get it, it's as good as nobodies but if India were to open a new front (like they did with Doklam) and cause trouble for China yet again, then it may appear that agreeing to disengagement here provided no deterrence to India.
Fair.

But what is the ultimate outcome of the entire saga? That's still confusing to me.
Furthermore, do you think disengagement will happen in all friction points?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Fair.

But what is the ultimate outcome of the entire saga? That's still confusing to me.
Furthermore, do you think disengagement will happen in all friction points?

Yes I suspect it will be for all points since the motivation for disengagement is and probably will be hidden by both sides. But since it's happening, it is clearly important and worthwhile enough for China to commit to disengagement. Half baked simply doesn't have a place since India's side that provides the accountability hasn't proven the deal is anything but full disengagement. The purposes are still mysterious.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Only jet lost was an obsolete Mig21 which was cheaper than US Global Hawk shot down by Iran.

1000 sq kn terrotiry has been already busted as it has been proved China was in control fo that area for decades as shown in google earth images from 2003-5

60 POWs also not confirmed officially by China or India but only anonynous media reprts from Indian media
No jet used in an active battle can be called obsolete and be absolved of the ultimate result which was, absolutely, a failure.


1000 sq km claim hasn't been busted, rather enforced by Indian press itself. The fact remains that even though China had a post at Junction Y, India could patrol to points 10 to 14 (but they didn't do that or sparsely did that because of the difficult terrain). But when India tried to patrol again after the confrontation down south in Pangong Tso, it was blocked.

So, yes. India did, ultimately lose 1000 sq km. If it didn't, why did it try to patrol a region that it never patrolled for long? Just look at the Twitter thread of the OSINT "rebuttal" someone posted. Indians themselves are the ones divulging the details about the likely reality I mentioned.


You said it, most of the points that may be seen as a thorn on the face of India are said by Indian media themselves. You keep arguing that all those Indian media which paints a not-so-rosy pictures are wrong and biased against the Modi party.
 
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