Ladakh Flash Point

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Sardaukar20

Captain
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I mean US gave indians permission to intrude into Chinese territory in the first place.
Basically the US is giving valuable sensor and intelligence data to India. It could show gaps or weak points in Chinese defenses. Potentially great information in a wartime scenario. Obviously, all of this done with the hope that the Indians would be emboldened to attack China militarily. Similar to how the US supports Islamists and freedom fighters in countries it don't like.

The thing is this doesn't really work if the enemy is a competent military power. US tried this experiment with Ukraine. It did mess things up for Russia, but on a whole, did not help Ukraine score any significant victories. Obviously the US is trying that with India now.

Nevertheless, sensor and information still needs to be interpreted. US commanders can, and have been fooled before. Indian commanders, well their history speaks for itself. All these valuable information is worthless if the commander reading them don't interpret them correctly. The Chinese are more than aware that America and India is watching them. So I can bet that they would employ deception liberally.

It remains to be seen if India could one day muster the courage to finally attack China based on US intelligence. Or India would just continue their current lip service warfare and frustrate the hell out of America. The latter is more realistic given India's circumstances, but I could be wrong.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
As much as Pakistan would like a joint Air-Land war against India, it won't solve China's actual strategic dilemma, which exists not on the high mountains, but on the high seas. Things are moving in the right direction here, with the US continually getting weaker, but the IN has an inherent advantage due to its placement on the map, directly threatening China's sea lines of communication, even without the USN:

Screen_Shot_2016-04-25_at_2.45.54_PM.0.png


1024px-China%E2%80%99s_Critical_Sea_Lines_of_Communication.png


There's still a lot of variables here and lots of different ways this game can play out. The goal of all strategy is to keep increasing your set of options, while reducing your opponent's options, until you corner them. At that point, you can go for the kill or force a diplomatic win. The Air-Land threat to India is just one move. The more resources India spends on its Army/Airforce, the less it has left to spend on its Navy. I expect that the Air-Land showdown will probably happen between Pakistan and India, without China getting directly involved, because of the complicated Naval dimension.. But you never know how it will play out in 10+ years. China and Pakistan are integrating their battle-systems, so the option for a joint-war is being stood-up. It never hurts to have more options.

India has zero viable naval options to try to threaten Chinese sea trade through the Indian Ocean because the flag flown by merchant ships have almost no bearing on who owns their cargo or their destination.

The sheer volume of commercial shipping going through the Indian Ocean would make a mockery of even the USN’s attempt to cut off trade to a power like China through there. Which your chart demonstrates well

With the nature of modern commerce, the only way anyone could even hope of cutting sea based trade is through control of geographical choke points. That was why the US was so interested in trying to get its vassals to seize islands in the SCS.

Other than the odd ship they might seize for PR purposes, any Indian attempt to interfere with Chinese sea based trade going through the Indian Ocean will either be spectacularly useless, or they will incur the wrath of the entire world if they made the Indian Ocean a no-go area for all commercial shipping. In which case, they will suddenly realise the true strategy value of Diego Garcia.

America cannot tolerant any possible challengers to their primacy, and Diego Garcia serves as its insurance in case India actually ever amount to much, or steps way out of line.

Even China could easily defeat any Indian attempts at messing with Chinese sea based trade with just a few SSNs.

All of China’s subs are capable of undersea mine laying. It can have a few SSNs lay entire minefields in Indian waters and the first the Indians would know of them would be when one of their ships runs into one.

Chinese SSNs don’t even need to directly attack IN ships to effectively cut off Indian sea based trade. China merely declaring a free fire zone and notifying the world of its mine laying in Indian waters will kill off all Indian sea based international trade overnight.

Ships merely going through the Indian Ocean can easily steer well clear of the danger zone.

As such, India starting a new naval front with China is about the worst thing it could possible do short of launch an ineffective nuclear strike.

India has little hope to even do noticeable damage to Chinese sea based trade, while the PLAN can easily counter blockade India without needing to deploy much in the way of assets, and can operate with a high degree of safety given poor India ASW and counter-mine capabilities.

While there is a risk of the USN helping the Indians with detection and tracking of PLAN SSNs especially, I show how doubt they will be in the mood to do so if India kicked it all off by trying to disrupt international trade in the Indian Ocean. The Indians would be lucky if the USN isn’t sinking their warships for lolz in response to such a brain damaged move.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
It's been 10 years and I still don't understand how the whole Malacca Straits choking plan is going to be enacted regarding trade. The target here then must be Oil.

It seems although people just looked up a map of China's trade flow through Cargo Ships, noticed that it converges and spills through a Strait in Indonesia and wondered "what if we stop that?".
And everyone was happy and glad to know that they finally had something to deal with China.

If we try to read into it a bit more, it's apparent that what they mean by choking Malacca isnt Cargo but strangling Oil supply.

Their expectation and hopes are built around the past experience of Imperial Japan and its dependence on Oil for war. Nazi Germany too, for that matter.

Both of these countries were forced to search for Oil fields ( Nazi Germany trying desperately to reach the shores of Baku and Imperial Japan desperately trying to keep the Indonesian Oil fields).

But then, looking up at Ladakh and Aksai Chin, I think China plans to build a pipeline to mitigate this. Pakistan - China pipeline or even one that further extends to Iran.

I think that's why US supports Indian intrusion on that front.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
This Indian wet dream of choking China by choking the Malacca Strait would be a massive geopolitical blunder for India. No one can effectively track every single ship if its heading to China. Even if India could, many of these ships could still be making stopovers at many countries other than China. You know, all modern shipping fleets practice multiple stop-points to maximize the productivity of each voyage.

If India truly wants to choke China's shipping in the Malacca Straits, then it'll also be choking trade for many other countries. This is effectively a declaration of war on countries reliant on the Malacca Straits. The biggest losers aside from China from this blockade are: Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, and maybe The Philippines. Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand (maybe also Vietnam) would be forced into allying with China to battle the Indian Navy and re-open the Malacca Straits. We haven't even talk about the Gulf states and Iran who would be fuming as their oil exports to their biggest customers in Asia gets disrupted. Pakistan can surely capitalize on the united anger of the Muslim world on this Indian stupidity. As if India hasn't angered them enough already.

If the naval conflict drags on, the Malacca Straits will be closed. Global trade will be severely disrupted. Ships travelling between Europe and Asia will have to take longer routes. Shipping costs would skyrocket. Oil prices will shoot up. Then "India's friends" like South Korea, Japan, and EU will all feel the pain. All for what? For India to have the satisfaction of choking China? Good job! Because it can only help to advance China's alliance building initiative. The cynical part of me feels that India doing this is probably a good thing. It'll surely help India to displace China as Public Enemy no.1. And allow China and many other angry nations to gang-bang on India.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
American courtship of India isn’t more in-depth than wanting more arms exports and a billion cannon fodder to waste Chinese bullets with. Expecting India to be able to achieve any sort of large scale direct military victory against China is a joke not even the Indian press can make anyone else take seriously.

Speaking of jokes, I heard of a good one lately - that China is maintaining the pressure in Ladakh because the military tension has very effectively choked off normal civilian/nomad traffic, which is very much to China’s liking given how rampantly out of control COVID is in India, and it doesn’t want any vector for it to spread to China via the land boarder.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
While there is a risk of the USN helping the Indians....

... "risk"? That's the entire plan. That's what the annual 'QUAD' Malabar Exercises are for. That doesn't mean this option will be triggered by India for its own benefit. India is a junior partner in the US network. But if the US pulls the trigger, you can bet that Diego Garcia won't be there to help China by blocking India, it's there to block China by using India. The USN also wants to stand up a new fleet (with existing ships) and base it in the Indian Ocean. These are not random coincidences.

Case in point:

American courtship of India isn’t more in-depth than wanting more arms exports and a billion cannon fodder

This viewpoint seems to be in the minority. The majority of analysts I've read disagree with it e.g. the RAND corporation, Friedman's GPF thinktank, and India's Sawhney, who is a critic of this option and has advised India not to accept opting into it.

With that said, these are all just options at this point for the major players. It doesnt mean they will exercise them. As I said, the board is still wide open with many variables.
 
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reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
India has zero viable naval options to try to threaten Chinese sea trade through the Indian Ocean because the flag flown by merchant ships have almost no bearing on who owns their cargo or their destination.

The sheer volume of commercial shipping going through the Indian Ocean would make a mockery of even the USN’s attempt to cut off trade to a power like China through there. Which your chart demonstrates well

With the nature of modern commerce, the only way anyone could even hope of cutting sea based trade is through control of geographical choke points. That was why the US was so interested in trying to get its vassals to seize islands in the SCS.

Other than the odd ship they might seize for PR purposes, any Indian attempt to interfere with Chinese sea based trade going through the Indian Ocean will either be spectacularly useless, or they will incur the wrath of the entire world if they made the Indian Ocean a no-go area for all commercial shipping. In which case, they will suddenly realise the true strategy value of Diego Garcia.

America cannot tolerant any possible challengers to their primacy, and Diego Garcia serves as its insurance in case India actually ever amount to much, or steps way out of line.

Even China could easily defeat any Indian attempts at messing with Chinese sea based trade with just a few SSNs.

All of China’s subs are capable of undersea mine laying. It can have a few SSNs lay entire minefields in Indian waters and the first the Indians would know of them would be when one of their ships runs into one.

Chinese SSNs don’t even need to directly attack IN ships to effectively cut off Indian sea based trade. China merely declaring a free fire zone and notifying the world of its mine laying in Indian waters will kill off all Indian sea based international trade overnight.

Ships merely going through the Indian Ocean can easily steer well clear of the danger zone.

As such, India starting a new naval front with China is about the worst thing it could possible do short of launch an ineffective nuclear strike.

India has little hope to even do noticeable damage to Chinese sea based trade, while the PLAN can easily counter blockade India without needing to deploy much in the way of assets, and can operate with a high degree of safety given poor India ASW and counter-mine capabilities.

While there is a risk of the USN helping the Indians with detection and tracking of PLAN SSNs especially, I show how doubt they will be in the mood to do so if India kicked it all off by trying to disrupt international trade in the Indian Ocean. The Indians would be lucky if the USN isn’t sinking their warships for lolz in response to such a brain damaged move.
Yes, barring a full war with China, the rational thing to do for India is talk about these threats but to take no action. Now, if you are fighting a full fledge war anyways, the blockade might be a desperate option. India has quite a lot to lose if they do this when they are not fighting a war with China.

First, the entire Indian navy will likely be annihilated. The U.S. will not be coming for the rescue since India pick this fight. In fact, there won't be any support from the international community.

In addition, China can easily take the Andaman Islands. Logistics is in favor of the Indians, but if you don't have a navy anymore, then this advantage will not mean anything.

Finally, China and Pakistan may decide that this is a hostile enough action that they have nothing left to lose. This will bring a full on invasion of India.

It is a good thing that Indian politicians are accustomed to spewing out a lot of hot air but not so much in taking any action.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
... "risk"? That's the entire plan. That's what the annual 'QUAD' Malabar Exercises are for. That doesn't mean this option will be triggered by India for its own benefit. India is a junior partner in the US network. But if the US pulls the trigger, you can bet that Diego Garcia won't be there to help China by blocking India, it's there to block China by using India. The USN also wants to stand up a new fleet (with existing ships) and base it in the Indian Ocean. These are not random coincidences.

Case in point:



This viewpoint seems to be in the minority. The majority of analysts I've read disagree with it e.g. the RAND corporation, Friedman's GPF thinktank, and India's Sawhney, who is a critic of this option and has advised India not to accept opting into it.

With that said, these are all just options at this point for the major players. It doesnt mean they will exercise them. As I said, the board is still wide open with many variables.

If China went picking fights in the Indian Ocean, sure, the US would almost certainly provide intel support to the Indians. However, if India started it fight by effectively closing the Indian Ocean to world traffic and brings global commerce to a crashing stop, that will also massively damage American interests.

Under such circumstances, India would be counting themselves lucky if the USN isn’t the one obliterating their navy, never mind hope to get any actual help.

As for what western think tanks say, well come on, they inflate Indian capabilities almost as much as the Indians themselves. If even a fraction of what western think tanks ‘projected’ India might achieve over the years actually came to pass, America would be waging its trade war against India, as it would be America’s biggest competition.
 
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