Ladakh Flash Point

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Mohsin77

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However, if India started it fight by effectively closing the Indian Ocean to world traffic and brings global commerce to a crashing stop...

India can't make such a move without US authorization for the foreseeable future, so that's a moot point.

As for what western think tanks say, well come on, they inflate Indian capabilities almost as much as the Indians themselves.

Sure, but their intentions are the problem for China, because capabilities are also a time dependent variable. In any case, the most important factor to China's SLOC problem isn't India. It's US power over the coming decades e.g. if the US goes bankrupt and the USN withdraws from the entire region, then that changes everything. That's why I said the game is headed in the right direction because the US is getting weaker.
 

jimmyjames30x30

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This Indian wet dream of choking China by choking the Malacca Strait would be a massive geopolitical blunder for India. No one can effectively track every single ship if its heading to China. Even if India could, many of these ships could still be making stopovers at many countries other than China. You know, all modern shipping fleets practice multiple stop-points to maximize the productivity of each voyage.

If India truly wants to choke China's shipping in the Malacca Straits, then it'll also be choking trade for many other countries. This is effectively a declaration of war on countries reliant on the Malacca Straits. The biggest losers aside from China from this blockade are: Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, and maybe The Philippines. Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand (maybe also Vietnam) would be forced into allying with China to battle the Indian Navy and re-open the Malacca Straits. We haven't even talk about the Gulf states and Iran who would be fuming as their oil exports to their biggest customers in Asia gets disrupted. Pakistan can surely capitalize on the united anger of the Muslim world on this Indian stupidity. As if India hasn't angered them enough already.

If the naval conflict drags on, the Malacca Straits will be closed. Global trade will be severely disrupted. Ships travelling between Europe and Asia will have to take longer routes. Shipping costs would skyrocket. Oil prices will shoot up. Then "India's friends" like South Korea, Japan, and EU will all feel the pain. All for what? For India to have the satisfaction of choking China? Good job! Because it can only help to advance China's alliance building initiative. The cynical part of me feels that India doing this is probably a good thing. It'll surely help India to displace China as Public Enemy no.1. And allow China and many other angry nations to gang-bang on India.

Exactly! A lot of times, people are talking about things they don't really understand.
The US navy is infinitely more powerful and capable than the Indian navy. But even the USA is afraid and deeply concerned about China building islands in SCS. This is because the so-called "choke the Malacca Strait" is not something that can be easily and effectively done in a control manner by naval forces. Because China doesn't need to control SCS and Malacca straight to protect her strategic interest. All China needs to do in retaliation is to elevate the tension in the region, and all trade through that straight will be deeply affected. This means that many other countries: Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, etc that deeply depend on the straight will be much badly hurt than China. And the US financial market is deeply tied to the global trade and manufacturing supply chain that has important nodes in these countries.

In fact, I would say that no only is Malacca Straight NOT a weak point for China. It is literally one of the two balls of the Globalized world order and the US financial market, and this ball is in the grasp of China's hand. All she needs to do is to squeeze it a little bit, and the world will shriek. I would even go as far to say that it would be in China's greatest strategic interest to gain the capability to UPSET the establish order here (and to create chaos and conflict in this area). Yet, the majority of people thought that an escalation beyond boiling point in the Malacca Straight is bad only for China.

If you look at relative advantage and interest, once the Malacca Straight and the SCS became chaotic conflict zone and loses peace and order, China would be biggest winner as long as the world is still globalized. Because this will mean that the cost of maritime trade/transportation-of-goods through SCS will skyrocket. This will greatly diminish (if not totally erase) the relative cost advantage maritime trade/transportation-of-goods over land trade/transportation-of-goods.

This, I believe, is also why China's 21 century silk-road endeavors is materialized as the "belt and road initiative". This initiative actually contain an ambitious over-land trade route that the West will find disconcerting. Because the West only think in terms of a world that remains in its current state of being, so the do their calculation purely on cost numbers on the current market.
But please, use your imagination, once a stupid actor in the region decides to escalate SCS against China, and China inevitably retaliates, what would happen? lol

This will happen: this huge maritime trade route (which is this one through SCS) will collapse, and China's over-land transportation infrastructure and OBOR will provide the only alternative. This is why the US is so afraid of PLA's build up in SCS.
 
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Mohsin77

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In fact, I would say that no only is Malacca Straight NOT a weak point for China. It is literally one of the two balls of the Globalized world order and the US financial market, and this ball is in the grasp of China's hand. All she needs to do is to squeeze it a little bit, and the world will shriek. I would even go as far to say that it would be in China's greatest strategic interest to gain the capability to UPSET the establish order here (and to create chaos and conflict in this area). Yet, the majority of people thought that an escalation beyond boiling point in the Malacca Straight is bad only for China.

Incorrect. The last thing China wants is chaos, because chaos is unpredictable. On all predictable metrics, China is on track to exceed the US. Chaos is a valid move for the side which is losing.

China already had the perfect opportunity to create chaos in 2008, which is what Russia asked China to do, when the US economy was in freefall. China refused and stabilized the system. It doesn't even want a chaotic collapse of the US.
 
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Xizor

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Incorrect. The last thing China wants is chaos, because chaos is unpredictable. On all predictable metrics, China is on track to exceed the US. Chaos is a valid move for the side which is losing.

China already had the perfect opportunity to create chaos in 2008, which is what Russia asked China to do, when the US economy was in freefall. China refused and stabilized the system. It doesn't even want a chaotic collapse of the US.
Yes. Stability is the main priority for China.
And just like the Gulf of Tonkin, US conducts FONOPS for China to trip and fall.
With Ladakh, India has opened a new front for China. I don't think we can expect a protracted conflict therefore.

Whatever be the skirmish, it will remain a skirmish as long as China has a stake in it.
A China unwilling to fight is the most frustrating thing for its adversaries and they'll continue to try provoke China.
 

Sardaukar20

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In fact, I would say that no only is Malacca Straight NOT a weak point for China. It is literally one of the two balls of the Globalized world order and the US financial market, and this ball is in the grasp of China's hand. All she needs to do is to squeeze it a little bit, and the world will shriek. I would even go as far to say that it would be in China's greatest strategic interest to gain the capability to UPSET the establish order here (and to create chaos and conflict in this area). Yet, the majority of people thought that an escalation beyond boiling point in the Malacca Straight is bad only for China.
Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. I doubt it is in China's interest to have chaos in the Malacca Straits. Everything that China have done up to this point such as: SCS island building, OBOR, RCEP, and SCO definitely indicates that it desires stability, not chaos. A messed up Malacca Straits is not in China's interest at all.

Having said that. I believe it is in India's interest to sow chaos in the Malacca Straits. Especially if they are losing a border war with China; which they most definitely will. This stupidity is not beyond India's BJP leaders, who behave more like thugs than statesmen. They have a notorious reputation of shooting first, then think later. BJP election campaigns are somehow tied with border tensions with India's neighbors. Plus, BJP India already have the nasty track record of blockading Nepal.

As a personal gripe, I would much prefer China to take more proactive action with this Indian threat, no matter how believable it is. China could and should ask Pakistan to allow access of its waters to test DF-26 impacts there. Demonstrate that the DF-26 can reach areas India thinks its boats are safe. Do joint naval exercises with Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, and Myanmar to practice keeping the Malacca Straits open from "a third-party rogue state". Build up naval bases in friendly countries in the Indian Ocean. Stop over-acting as the nice guy. RCEP and OBOR are all fine and nice. But please do more to guarantee the security of these trade agreements. India is not a party of both, so it is in India's interest to sabotage them. China needs to assure its business partners, that it means business. If India threatens RCEP and OBOR, assure them that China has at least a plan to deal with that.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
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Incorrect. The last thing China wants is chaos, because chaos is unpredictable. On all predictable metrics, China is on track to exceed the US. Chaos is a valid move for the side which is losing.

China already had the perfect opportunity to create chaos in 2008, which is what Russia asked China to do, when the US economy was in freefall. China refused and stabilized the system. It doesn't even want a chaotic collapse of the US.

Well, China certainly do not want to actively sort chaos. BUT, you have to agree that out of all the major trading nations in East Asia, China would be by far the most resilient to chaos in SCS.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
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Yes. Stability is the main priority for China.
And just like the Gulf of Tonkin, US conducts FONOPS for China to trip and fall.
With Ladakh, India has opened a new front for China. I don't think we can expect a protracted conflict therefore.

Whatever be the skirmish, it will remain a skirmish as long as China has a stake in it.
A China unwilling to fight is the most frustrating thing for its adversaries and they'll continue to try provoke China.

Sure, China certainly do not want to actively sort chaos, is she does, it would have already happened. And it is also true that the US does NOT really want chaos in the region too, because if she wants, it would have happened. Therefore it is evident that both China and US has great interest in keeping SCS from descending into total chaos.

Hence, to dig deeper, the US must have as much stake in the stability of the SCS as China does. Because the US and China both have very strong military. Strong at least in the ability to escalate beyond the control the other party. And it is evident that the US is NOT a SCS nation, nor does it directly have important trade/transportation route in the SCS. This means that the China's tolerance and resilience to chaos in SCS must be large enough, that the US will NOT risk creating chaos there to at the cost of her own stake in SCS stability.

One thing you have to agree is that, out of all the major trading nations in East Asia, China would be by far the most resilient to chaos in SCS. This resilient itself will be China's trump card.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. I doubt it is in China's interest to have chaos in the Malacca Straits. Everything that China have done up to this point such as: SCS island building, OBOR, RCEP, and SCO definitely indicates that it desires stability, not chaos. A messed up Malacca Straits is not in China's interest at all.

Having said that. I believe it is in India's interest to sow chaos in the Malacca Straits. Especially if they are losing a border war with China; which they most definitely will. This stupidity is not beyond India's BJP leaders, who behave more like thugs than statesmen. They have a notorious reputation of shooting first, then think later. BJP election campaigns are somehow tied with border tensions with India's neighbors. Plus, BJP India already have the nasty track record of blockading Nepal.

As a personal gripe, I would much prefer China to take more proactive action with this Indian threat, no matter how believable it is. China could and should ask Pakistan to allow access of its waters to test DF-26 impacts there. Demonstrate that the DF-26 can reach areas India thinks its boats are safe. Do joint naval exercises with Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, and Myanmar to practice keeping the Malacca Straits open from "a third-party rogue state". Build up naval bases in friendly countries in the Indian Ocean. Stop over-acting as the nice guy. RCEP and OBOR are all fine and nice. But please do more to guarantee the security of these trade agreements. India is not a party of both, so it is in India's interest to sabotage them. China needs to assure its business partners, that it means business. If India threatens RCEP and OBOR, assure them that China has at least a plan to deal with that.

First of all, you guys don't even know what I am talking about. Of course China does NOT have interest in creating chaos in SCS. However, a country with power and resources do NOT plan for what they desire under their idealized conditions. They plan for the worst situations and conditions to mitigate risks.

What I am talking about is that SCS is currently a big point of risk for China. In order to mitigate that, China will need to create an external condition in which if such a third party decides to upset order in SCS to hurt China, China will not only have a deterrent mechanism to effectively retaliate in response, but also an ability to mitigate the risks, and decrease the negative effect of a chaotic SCS. This means that China must have an alternative trade route which could replace SCS at least to a certain degree, at least for a temporary period. This I think is the OBOR.

Remember China is the nation of the Chinese Communist Party of Mao Zedong. It is NOT USSR, nor is it like any other nation. The CCP is first a foremost a military-political structure.
Before they know how to develop China, they first won all of China through warfare.
Before they won all of China through warfare, they first learned how to survived the annihilation by the centralized (post-1946) ROC Army.
Before they learned how to survived the post-1945 KMT NRA, they learned how to survived the Japanese military attacks and assaults.
Before they learned how to survived the Japanese military attacks and assault, they first learned how to survive the over 10,000km long march.
Before they learned how to survived the 10,000km long march, they first learned how to survive the war lords and the NRA.

They are first and foremost a military political complex. They are NOT senatorial/parliamentarian masters of speeches and the Art of Rhetoric that wins votes by pleasing and impressing the intelligentsia, plebs and bourgeoisie. They win wars! They are doers, not talkers.
 

NiuBiDaRen

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@Gatekeeper Anyway this is not immediately relevant to Ladakh but anyway we were talking about gentrification in all these Western societies. I saw this photo of India's capital. Here in India is the divide between the rich areas and poor areas. Man. Thank goodness you don't have these stark slumification in China. The western media loves to sh*t on China when China does those ghetto clearance projects, esp NYTimes, but I honestly think it's a good idea to have slum prevention actions from time to time. I mean, man, favelas are not suitable places for high quality of life.

Right is Haves, Left is Have Nots. I imagine those on the right spend everyday dining on steak while a lot on the left are starving.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
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The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) that guards the LAC with China has sought from the government a continued deployment of its troops in internal security duties so that it can give a “healthy break” to its personnel who man high-altitude icy locations, leading to various health issues among them, official sources said.
Looks like ITBR has had it with the cold and lack of oxygen.
 
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