Ladakh Flash Point

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ougoah

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Does this mean US should accept Chinese supremacy in the SCS? Nvm that actually credible.

One of those "cool story bro" moments. They forget China isn't sabre rattling in Indian Ocean or challenging them or even initiating any sort of tensions there with India. This Indian Ocean topic is all from India itself telling itself that it has the option of blocking a few straits from China gaining commercial shipping access. Another example of India setting up some huge goals on its own field while the opposition team isn't even around. Scoring imaginary, self-constructed goals. China never even entertained or dignified India's one sided shit talking about being able to block Chinese commercial shipping.

Frankly, a single Type 055 with a handful of 052C, 052D, 054A, two 093B, can probably exceed the firepower of the entire Indian navy and do it with electronics several generations ahead of what the Indian navy uses (with the exception of Israeli ones onboard only two or three active IN warships). There are more HHQ-16 and HHQ-9 missiles in that group than there are Brahmos in all of India. How many IN warships have Barak missiles in active service? Yep and how many Barak missiles carried? Only a few Israeli AESA units in the entire IN. Block Indian Ocean? Even ignoring the fact that multiple nations will oppose India in such a stupid action, a fraction of PLAN should be able to handle the IN with ease. The nation that takes a decade to build one obsolete warship. Looks like the Indian bragging only applies to events that can never happen.

Got to wonder why they feel inadequate and insecure enough to need this sort of ego soothing stuff all the time. It's so pathetic but its Modi nation and distractions are needed along with narratives of adversaries that are constantly doing ill to India while its own commit the real sins.
 
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Kaeshmiri

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One of those "cool story bro" moments. They forget China isn't sabre rattling in Indian Ocean or challenging them or even initiating any sort of tensions there with India. This Indian Ocean topic is all from India itself telling itself that it has the option of blocking a few straits from China gaining commercial shipping access. Another example of India setting up some huge goals on its own field while the opposition team isn't even around. Scoring imaginary, self-constructed goals.

Got to wonder why they feel inadequate and insecure enough to need this sort of ego soothing stuff all the time. It's so pathetic but its Modi nation and distractions are needed along with narratives of adversaries that are constantly doing ill to India while its own commit the real sins.
Also, this blocking of straits strategy will backfire very badly. If India ever attempts it, China wouldn't even need to do anything. The disruption to trade and supplies in SE Asia will rupture all economies in the region & make India an overnight enemy of ASEAN .
 

ougoah

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Also, this blocking of straits strategy will backfire very badly. If India ever attempts it, China wouldn't even need to do anything. The disruption to trade and supplies in SE Asia will rupture all economies in the region & make India an overnight enemy of ASEAN .

Yeah I forgot to mention that till I edited it in. But that stuff is obvious to everyone except some within the Jai Hind crowd. Even just on military terms. India's got a pair of decent modern frigates and a pair of modern-ish destroyers. The generation that is about Type 052C level (with inferior weapons) will only be finished in years. Brahmos being the most formidable weapon and Barak-8. YJ-18 + YJ-12 beats Brahmos in flight attack path, electronic modernity and sophistication. They are pretty much equal in speed and near that range but are far smaller missiles with smaller RCS. That's not even counting AShBM DF-21 based and DF-26 based. All that region is within range of WZ-8 support drones and obviously sat tracking and targeting.

While India pays through the nose for a few barak-8s they can fit on their newer ships, PLAN's modern block of HHQ-16 and HHQ-8 have superior energy to Barak-8 variants and range too. Type 055 VLS numbers vs their yet to even finish Visakhapatnam class? incomparable. Anything they've got fielded that is equal to dual band, multi-layered Type 346B? Nothing even approaching 346's overall performance. Okay Israel has supplied some units of equal modernity and sophistication (we're left to assume) but they barely have a few units in service. Everything else is to be done and under plans for.

Essentially a naval fight between IN and PLAN in Indian Ocean would be an actual blue water navy vs one that plans on buying enough equipment to eventually become a brown water force. It'll just never happen because India will not block any strait and in all honesty, not be able to block any strait even with support which won't be given for obvious reasons. Even at the worst of times, China's enemies trip over each other to sign up for trade deals and economic agreements and tell India to piss off lol. They're delusion levels are incredible but when they rely on WION news and the like for information, you can sort of understand where all this comes from. Then there's the self-constructed goals that no one is even paying attention to. Jai Hinds are sad.
 

Sardaukar20

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Self claiming Indians again

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OMG! India "best in the world" again! Lol... :rolleyes:

Explaining the edge which the Indian Army would get to vet adversaries like China in a war scenario, Gade said the DRDO-developed gun is the longest firing howitzer in the world with 48 km and this will help it to be safe during a strike against the enemy.

“The enemy won’t be able to counter you as they would not be able to reach you but you can reach them at 48 kilometers. You can be eight kilometers behind their strike range but still hit them,” he said.

Well they seem to assume that all of PLA gun artillery range is maxed out at 40km. They conveniently forget that the PLA does have Rocket-Assisted 155mm shells that can go up to around 50km. Not to mention Beidou-guided shells that can go as far as 100km.

Nevertheless, all that comparison is pointless at the end of the day. PLA is never gonna purposefully fight the IA in a gun on gun artillery duel. All kinds of things at their disposal will be flying around. Shells, drones, rockets, missiles, bombs, etc. The PLA have the firepower advantage, hence they can dictate the escalation ladder with the IA.

These idiotic Indians have the idea that they can play a game of: "I shell you, you shell me" and then ceasefire, like what they have been doing with Pakistan all this time. If the Indian Army wanna play this artillery duel game with the PLA using their 'mighty' ATAGS. Returning 155mm shells is only just one of the many assortments of terrors that the Jawans would have to brave for. Jai Hind!
 
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jimmyjames30x30

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One of those "cool story bro" moments. They forget China isn't sabre rattling in Indian Ocean or challenging them or even initiating any sort of tensions there with India. This Indian Ocean topic is all from India itself telling itself that it has the option of blocking a few straits from China gaining commercial shipping access. Another example of India setting up some huge goals on its own field while the opposition team isn't even around. Scoring imaginary, self-constructed goals. China never even entertained or dignified India's one sided shit talking about being able to block Chinese commercial shipping.

Frankly, a single Type 055 with a handful of 052C, 052D, 054A, two 093B, can probably exceed the firepower of the entire Indian navy and do it with electronics several generations ahead of what the Indian navy uses (with the exception of Israeli ones onboard only two or three active IN warships). There are more HHQ-16 and HHQ-9 missiles in that group than there are Brahmos in all of India. How many IN warships have Barak missiles in active service? Yep and how many Barak missiles carried? Only a few Israeli AESA units in the entire IN. Block Indian Ocean? Even ignoring the fact that multiple nations will oppose India in such a stupid action, a fraction of PLAN should be able to handle the IN with ease. The nation that takes a decade to build one obsolete warship. Looks like the Indian bragging only applies to events that can never happen.

Got to wonder why they feel inadequate and insecure enough to need this sort of ego soothing stuff all the time. It's so pathetic but its Modi nation and distractions are needed along with narratives of adversaries that are constantly doing ill to India while its own commit the real sins.

No, I think this whole thing, ever since Doklam standoff was a grand strategy by China to put India into a pocket.
I've always thought it very strange: why on earth would India even want to challenge China on land. The forefront of China/India is geo-strategically in China's favor: the border is no more than 500km away from New Dehli and right next to the heavily populated northern plain of India.

India is the vulnerable party in this confrontation: the cheapest, most numerous and shortest range land attack missiles ( and even large rocket artilleries) in China's arsenal could wreak havoc on India economy and population center. Yet, India will need to use their most expensive and long range missiles and even nuclear weapons in order to retaliate in equal damage. What's worse is that India don't even have nearly enough of those to effectively cause equal damage, short of triggering a nuclear war which will see India destroyed. This kinda reminds me of the state of things in the Korean peninsula, where North Korea is a lot weaker than the South on paper, but they are still in a dominate position because Seoul is so close to the border, that North Korea can effectively cause more damage with just front line artillery to South Korea in terms of dollars, than what the entire North is worth in terms of dollars.

It is also historically evident: Tibet being a region much less densely populated and without a powerful military force ever since 840AD. And yet, none from the subcontinent ever even seriously considered invading Tibet from south, not even the Moghuls. This is because it is physically and economically not feasible. Unlike in the north, where time and time again, even defeated Mongol tribes could ride deep into Tibet through Xinjiang and Qinghai and endeavored to turn Tibet a home base to reestablish their only little "Mongol Yuan second dynasty". This is not to say that Moghuls are weaker than Mongolic tribes/Khanate like the Dzungar (the reality is quite the contrary). It's just that the geography is literally a big wall that shuts out the sub-continent from going north.

Therefore, it is not in India's interest to compete in a region where it would take them much much more resources to make meaningful territorial gain than it would take China to defend it, especially when India is materially, economically and industrially inferior to China by several times. It will be a place where China can literally bleed India to death, with very little cost. And there is actually very little meaningful gain for India even if she wins, and it will be detrimentally difficult to hold position when India's supply lines are literally right over the highest and steepest elevation difference on earth. It will be very simply for China to regain that territory coming from Qinghai, Xinjiang and Sichuan.

This means that it would be in China interest to provoke and lure India into spending her preciously little resources on a meaningless front, and thus effectively draining resources that India could have put in an elsewhere more geostrategically advantageous to India. I posted earlier that India should have swallowed their vain pride and don't react (at least not with her own resources). And instead, put money and resources on her navy and confront China in India Ocean, where the two of them have a more equal overall footing.

Yet it is evident that India being a populist democracy now, they will walk right into the trap.
 
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Mt1701d

Junior Member
Registered Member
No, I think this whole thing, ever since Doklam standoff was a grand strategy by China to put India into a pocket.
I've always thought it very strange: why on earth would India even want to challenge China on land. The forefront of China/India is geo-strategically in China's favor: the border is no more than 500km away from New Dehli and right next to the heavily populated northern plain of India.

India is the vulnerable party in this confrontation: the cheapest, most numerous and shortest range land attack missiles ( and even large rocket artilleries) in China's arsenal could wreak havoc on India economy and population center. Yet, India will need to use their most expensive and long range missiles and even nuclear weapons in order to retaliate in equal damage. What's worse is that India don't even have nearly enough of those to effectively cause equal damage, short of triggering a nuclear war which will see India destroyed. This kinda reminds me of the state of things in the Korean peninsula, where North Korea is a lot weaker than the South on paper, but they are still in a dominate position because Seoul is so close to the border, that North Korea can effectively cause more damage with just front line artillery to South Korea in terms of dollars, than what the entire North is worth in terms of dollars.
I think most people in the world would certainly agree with your assessment and I think most members and certainly myself agree that this whole thing is some grand strategy by China to drain India of its resources.

But it’s funny how if you look at the way Indians think, they would tell you that India has the advantage in a ground war with China. They primarily base this assessment on the assumption that supply lines for China from the its industrial centres to the front is too far and too stretched and that the concentration of forces is in India’s favour, which to some extent is true, tactically speaking, but like you said Indians seems to always neglect the strategic implications or the technology and financial disparity... if you look at the way Indian like to play out the war scenario they will say they have more airbases with air assets in the regions and therefore automatically have air superiority, more troops in the region where they can overwhelm China on the ground, then they will tell us that they have ballistic missile capable of reaching the industrial centres of China and finally they will say they can stave out China by blockading the The Malacca Straits. If you haven’t read or seen it before I suggest a good search on Quora... it’s a real good laugh and you can see the absolute delusions that some Indians have about their situation.

I do however have one contention, the situation of China and India is not the same or analogous with the situation of North and South Korea. The main reason being that with South Korea, there is a disproportionate concentration of industrial, both more traditional and high tech, and financial capacity as well as population in and around Seoul. Whereas for the Indians that’s not the case... it’s true that there is a higher concentration of population in the states around the ‘boarder’ regions but it is primarily the poorer/poorest in the Indian’s case, apart from maybe the New Delhi and Punjab areas, whilst the Indian’s industrial and financial centres are more in the central to southern regions of India further away from the ‘boarder’ region... the relative disruptions in the case of a ground war would be big but not as crippling as the case with South Korea.

This means that it would be in China interest to provoke and lure India into spending her preciously little resources on a meaningless front, and thus effectively draining resources that India could have put in an elsewhere more geostrategically advantageous to India. I posted earlier that India should have swallowed their vain pride and don't react (at least not with her own resources). And instead, put money and resources on her navy and confront China in India Ocean, where the two of them have a more equal overall footing.

Yet it is evident that India being a populist democracy now, they will walk right into the trap.
The problem is not so much that India is a populist democracy... it’s Modi who is a populist that rose because of the strong man image, the entire base for the Modi government is about a strong India therefore its impossible for the Indians to back down... further it’s not possible for India to place their major focus on their navy since the main enemy the Modi government have been using is Pakistan to whom the current Indian navy is seen as enough to overpowering. There is also the consideration that even if the Indians focused on their navy, it would be difficult to fight the PLAN in the Indian Ocean, the disparity in industrial output and more specifically in naval tonnage output is just too great and the difference in technology is also a big issue. What the Indian should have concentrated on is not the military aspects, since they procure the majority of their equipment from abroad anyway, but pure industrial capacity and capacity, and economics... had the Indians had done as advertised when Modi came to power the Indian threat could have been remotely credible but as it is right now... no matter what the Indians choose to focus on in the military aspects... its only a drop in the ocean, they can’t buy or build their way out of the situation, whilst China has the capacity, capability and will to build their way to an ever growing advantage.
 
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