Ladakh Flash Point

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Bright Sword

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Some of the best, most brilliant software engineers I have worked with are Indian and had degrees from Indian Universities - particularly IIT (Indian Institute of Technology - depends on the campus though, apparently it's like the UC system where only select campuses are high in quality). On the other end of the spectrum, it also seems most of the really bad software engineers I have worked with also tend to be graduates of Indian universities. In between, I have also known a great many in the decent / competent but not great range. On the other hand, during the times I've had to deal with offshore teams actually based in India, the quality of the software engineers were almost universally horrendous - I'm at a loss for how they were able to pass CS 101. I wouldn't generalize and say engineers from Indian universities are universally bad, because there are quite a few very good ones and many in between - same applies with any other country, including China and the US.
Have you worked with their mechanical design engineers?
I had an engineer designing critical hydraulic cylinder pins out of EN-8 material, an obsolete British Standard for wrought steel roughly equivalent to C35/C30.
My colleagues have worked with their aerospace engineers. Indians want to play safe and will not sign off on drawings or calculations.
 
Have you worked with their mechanical design engineers?
I had an engineer designing critical hydraulic cylinder pins out of EN-8 material, an obsolete British Standard for wrought steel roughly equivalent to C35/C30.
My colleagues have worked with their aerospace engineers. Indians want to play safe and will not sign off on drawings or calculations.

I'm sure it varies by field, as software engineering is probably one of India's stronger suits when it comes to engineering disciplines. But I find it hard to believe that in other disciplines, engineers educated in India would be universally bad - and I don't think it's accurate to make such an assessment based on anecdotal evidence and very small sample sizes.

When it comes to India's development level and progress, I don't think lack of talent in STEM is the main issue. I am no expert when it comes to India's economic development and modern history, so I will not try to diagnose India's structural and institutional issues. What I do see happening is that India is having difficulty retaining and utilizing science and engineering talent.
 

AntiDK

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Interesting article on India elites' mindset about India's position in the world and their real capacity. Particularly interesting is the book written by Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, India's external foreign affairs minister, the architect of India's current pro-US policy. His "three burdens from history" reflects what many Indians think why they land where they're today.
In my opinion, India has never really unleash major reform like China did few decades ago while holding onto a sacred believe that having this western style democracy for their current condition is a passport in becoming a superpower. China does not view weakness as shame but a great teacher which we can see with its dependence on US for semiconductor stuffs while India mostly would do whatever it takes to cover up the shame instead of learning from it.
 

Sardaukar20

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India cannot join Kavkaz 2020 because of Covid-19 'concerns'. But can participate in Malabar 2020 Naval exercise next month with the Quad. Not only that, India apparently invited Australia into the Malabar exercise instead of the US. So India is now daring enough to act like a 'Great Power'?

In terms of Covid-19 danger. Isn't having military war games with Russia and China far safer than with the USA? So India trusts US's Covid-19 handling, but indirectly rebukes Russia's Covid-19 handling? So much for being Russia's 'best ally'. Granted it is a naval exercise, where people to people contact is far reduced. But ships are also the worse places for a virus to spread if they somehow make it on board.
 

badoc

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Some of the best, most brilliant software engineers I have worked with are Indian and had degrees from Indian Universities - particularly IIT (Indian Institute of Technology - depends on the campus though, apparently it's like the UC system where only select campuses are high in quality). On the other end of the spectrum, it also seems most of the really bad software engineers I have worked with also tend to be graduates of Indian universities. In between, I have also known a great many in the decent / competent but not great range. On the other hand, during the times I've had to deal with offshore teams actually based in India, the quality of the software engineers were almost universally horrendous - I'm at a loss for how they were able to pass CS 101. I wouldn't generalize and say engineers from Indian universities are universally bad, because there are quite a few very good ones and many in between - same applies with any other country, including China and the US.
That the best that Indians can do at the OLYMPICS of Programming,
is 41 at the ACM-ICPC World Programming Contest says a lot about the lack of brilliance of Indian software engineers.

All the more pathetic given the strong emphasis India placed on the IT industry and the millions of Indian IT graduates.

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Results 2019

41 Indian Institute of Technology - Madras
41 Indian Institute of Technology - Roorkee

Better than from 2018 though, at the same position as tiny Singapore.
Results 2018
56 Indian Institute of Technology - Delhi
56 National University of Singapore
.
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
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I'm sure it varies by field, as software engineering is probably one of India's stronger suits when it comes to engineering disciplines. But I find it hard to believe that in other disciplines, engineers educated in India would be universally bad - and I don't think it's accurate to make such an assessment based on anecdotal evidence and very small sample sizes.

When it comes to India's development level and progress, I don't think lack of talent in STEM is the main issue. I am no expert when it comes to India's economic development and modern history, so I will not try to diagnose India's structural and institutional issues. What I do see happening is that India is having difficulty retaining and utilizing science and engineering talent.
Anecdotal? Perhaps...Having worked in three countries ( China, India and North America) in mining and construction equipment R & D ; directly both with Chinese and Indian engineers I can only restrict my opinion to my own field.
The older post 1947 generation of Indians had the legacy of a fairly intact and ethical engineering education system, as well as a Soviet backed technology transfer system for core sector industries. The current situation at least in the field I am familiar with is substantially different from the previous era.
This is reflected in a very non-competitive standard in the automotive and heavy construction equipment sector. 1955-56 Toyota Motors of Japan and Hindustan Motors both launched new models of cars. Toyota had their own design, The Crown. Hindustan Motors was producing a licensed version of the Morris Oxford 1955 that it kept manufacturing till 2013. Nothing more needs to be said for Indian automotive innovation.
 

Bright Sword

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Anecdotal? Perhaps...Having worked in three countries ( China, India and North America) in mining and construction equipment R & D ; directly both with Chinese and Indian engineers I can only restrict my opinion to my own field.
The older post 1947 generation of Indians had the legacy of a fairly intact and ethical engineering education system, as well as a Soviet backed technology transfer system for core sector industries. The current situation at least in the field I am familiar with is substantially different from the previous era.
This is reflected in a very non-competitive standard in the automotive and heavy construction equipment sector. 1955-56 Toyota Motors of Japan and Hindustan Motors both launched new models of cars. Toyota had their own design, The Crown. Hindustan Motors was producing a licensed version of the Morris Oxford 1955 that it kept manufacturing till 2013. Nothing more needs to be said for Indian automotive innovation.

Moving to critical fields such as optics and electronics and precision engineering India has lagged behind for decades.
The consumer goods a nation makes are spin-offs of critical technologies developed for the defence industries.
( Example: There would be no microwaves in our kitchens if the magnetron had not been developed for military radars).
At the time when China had made several models of fairly robust and accurate still cameras such as Seagull as well as cine cameras, the only cameras India made was a plastic box camera, license built from the German Agfa Company. This is unusual for a nation obsessed with its film industry with a heavy reliance on photography.The entire Bollywood film industry relied on imported cameras and stock.
Similarly in consumer electronics India did poorly manufacturing atrocious quality 3-band Murphy transistor sets , the price of which cost a month's wages of the average middle class family.
It was the same with every other ciass of consumer goods, from bicycles, motorized scooters, sewing machines,TV sets to home appliances. The Indian consumer industry under heavy protection from competitors kept producing shoddy goods until 1992-93 when import bans were lifted.
Till the mid 1990s with Nepal next door smuggling thrived, and the demand for Chinese and Japanese goods were insatiable.
Win Sung fountain pens, National Panasonic Transistor sets, Yashica and Seagull cameras, Funai VCRs, Grundig tape recorders, jackets, gloves, all were smuggled into India from across the Indian border.
Once India went to collaboration and
started manufacturing licensed versions of consumer goods the Indian brands have vanished.
Hindustan Motors made its last Ambassador car in 2013, and a little before that India's last Premier vanished. Tatas makes a fairly basic line of sedans Indigo etc. which are sold nowhere else but in India and Bangladesh. Murphy, Bush and Telerad radio sets have gone into memory lane, and so have Sonodyne and Texla TVs. "Delhi" brand firms making laundry irons and cooking stoves have long since shut down. India imports or license builds all consumer goods to foreign designs. Its own design bureaus have long since hung up their T- scales and slide rules.
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
Moving to critical fields such as optics and electronics and precision engineering India has lagged behind for decades.
The consumer goods a nation makes are spin-offs of critical technologies developed for the defence industries.
( Example: There would be no microwaves in our kitchens if the magnetron had not been developed for military radars).
At the time when China had made several models of fairly robust and accurate still cameras such as Seagull as well as cine cameras, the only cameras India made was a plastic box camera, license built from the German Agfa Company. This is unusual for a nation obsessed with its film industry with a heavy reliance on photography.The entire Bollywood film industry relied on imported cameras and stock.
Similarly in consumer electronics India did poorly manufacturing atrocious quality 3-band Murphy transistor sets , the price of which cost a month's wages of the average middle class family.
It was the same with every other ciass of consumer goods, from bicycles, motorized scooters, sewing machines,TV sets to home appliances. The Indian consumer industry under heavy protection from competitors kept producing shoddy goods until 1992-93 when import bans were lifted.
Till the mid 1990s with Nepal next door smuggling thrived, and the demand for Chinese and Japanese goods were insatiable.
Win Sung fountain pens, National Panasonic Transistor sets, Yashica and Seagull cameras, Funai VCRs, Grundig tape recorders, jackets, gloves, all were smuggled into India from across the Indian border.
Once India went to collaboration and
started manufacturing licensed versions of consumer goods the Indian brands have vanished.
Hindustan Motors made its last Ambassador car in 2013, and a little before that India's last Premier vanished. Tatas makes a fairly basic line of sedans Indigo etc. which are sold nowhere else but in India and Bangladesh. Murphy, Bush and Telerad radio sets have gone into memory lane, and so have Sonodyne and Texla TVs. "Delhi" brand firms making laundry irons and cooking stoves have long since shut down. India imports or license builds all consumer goods to foreign designs. Its own design bureaus have long since hung up their T- scales and slide rules.
The worst affected has been India's toy industry.
Till the mid 1990s all of India's children's toys were manufactured in India. 80% of the toys were manufactured in the industrial suburbs of New Delhi. The toys were of atrocious quality, unsafe, and the best of these cost on an average 10 days
wages of a working class family.
India's first collaboration was with Mattel toys of USA under the brand name Leo Mattel.
Earlier the cheapest toys made in India were made either of wood on by cottage industry handicrafts artisans or made of pressed metal on basic ball presses and hand soldered. The mechanisms were spring and clockwork driven. Plastic toys were crudely made from hand made dies using recycled plastic.
License manufacturing with Mattel and. later with Fisher ( UK ) where toys were manufactured from virgin plastic on precision EDM dies brought quality and economy. Also for the very first time Indian children had access to battery powered miniature motor driven toys. However these toys still remained out of reach of the majority of Indian children.
Then the imports from China flooded the market with quality and low cost toys that were affordable and safe.
The toy industry in India collapsed and even the license manufactured products found it difficult to compete.

Indians are furious at this even as they hush up their children's howls by stuffing a Chinese imported toy into their shopping bags.
Few know that malaise is deeper than just imports. India's toolroom industry has languished after first being given a flying start by the Soviets and the Swiss. If a nation cannot make millions of different types of press tools, dies, molds and fixtures, quickly and cheaply it will never be able to manufacture complex and diverse components from different materials.
China along with all the industrialized nations has achieved self sufficiency in tooling. Once again the toy industry is but indicative of the overall status of China's mechanical engineering capabilities. A country that can make billions of precision stampings for miniature toy motors can make billions of disintegrating links for quick firing machine gun ammunition belts.
 
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