Ladakh Flash Point

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Nobonita Barua

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There's a lot of feeling at places like cjdby that think there's a significant amount of US element behind Indian's posture.
To be honest i don't think there is significant & concrete US element behind India's "posturing" or whatever you call it. They would do it anyway with anyone. That's what they think of themselves. If you mean words or pompeo speeches by US elements that hyped their delusion, then it's different thing. Indians have long dream of "we are supah pawah bandwagon" thing though it changes name time to time like US -India -EU - Russia then US- India- EU- Japan... Then US-India-Israel...
 

Mohsin77

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1. Basically they are advocating the Israeli pattern when Israel struck a deal with Egypt ( Sadat, Rabin, Shimon Peres) returning Sinai for peace, effectively making Israel safer to fight on a single front in Syria, West Bank, and Lebanon. The Camp David accord was brokered by the USA ( Henry Kissinger) and deftly managed by the charismatic Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres.
2. Similar to the Camp David accord the Indian plan (supported by Gulf countries and the USA) proposes to split Pakistan away from China by offering a deal on Kashmir in exchange for Pakistan reneging on the CPEC thus isolating China.
3.The argument the proponents of this plan make is that China being in a dominant position is not interested in any compromises with India. The diplomatic axiom is that peace happens between a weaker ( or defeated) nation and a stronger nation so it is Pakistan that India must address to strike a deal and then concentrate on a single front ( political, diplomatic, military) to isolate China. The current Pakistan government as well as opposition is very likely to accept the outreach ( or so it is assumed)
4. There are harsh realities however , because the political capital the ruling party has built up in India is based exclusively on an anti-Indian Muslim, Muslim, and anti-Pakistani agenda which is now deeply embedded in the manipulated mindset of the majority Indian population. An outreach to Pakistan even if prudent would be unacceptable to the party ideologues who dream of Indian tanks rolling up the steps of the Faisal mosque in Islamabad. The Prime Minister himself is so extremely anti-Muslim (having overseen a pogrom while in the office of Chief Minister ) that practical and prudent as he is any such option is ruled out. The internal fascist environment so carefully built up over decades cannot be compromised. In view of the RSS which is the supreme ideological boss in India today both China and Pakistan must be fought.
Pakistan being weaker must be destroyed first and then China can be dealt with suitably.

Getting back to your points which preceded your question, there are a bunch of assumptions here that I don't agree with at all. The idea that the GCC supports pulling Pakistan away from China is completely unfounded. The GCC itself is getting closer to China, and will continue to do so as the US proceeds to make a mass exit from the 'greater middle east.' Secondly, whatever the Indian analysts think, the Israeli situation offers no helpful guidance to India, because US think-tanks themselves believe that Israel has no future, in the long-term. The same Stratfor analysts that are invited for interviews on Indian news shows have stated this in the past (I was a subscriber to Stratfor.) Opposition to Israel (as an independent political entity within our civilization borders) will never go away. Therefore, the Camp David Accords don't actually protect Israel. They give us the time we need to get our act together. It may take another century or two, but it's basically inevitable. "Israel" is nothing independent of the West, it is a pawn in a civilizational game that has been going on for a thousand years.
 
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discspinner

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What may happen is converting the LAC into an active controlled simmering conflict with occasional light mortar, machine gun and sniper fire exchanges, exactly like the LOC with Pakistan.
It makes wonderful Prime Time TV news in maintaining a hyper-national environment. Basic translations of Indian Hindi language channels show the large font screen filling headlines and screaming voice over audio
Usually the opening statement goed like this ;
"Breaking news ! Valiant Indian army kills two Pakistani soldiers and destroys two border posts... Pakistan Army cringes before our jawbreaker strike..."
Grainy footage of mortar fire follows with large font nearly filling the screen.

Such fake hyped media environment has to be maintained for political reasons because the ruling establishment ( like EoJ in the 1930s ) thrives on a war fever pitch.
What must not allowed to happen is:

1. No major reverse or retaliation.
Casualties from gun fire must be
kept to single digits but periodic
and regular.
2. If a major reverse or retaliation does happen then the strategy is
(a) Play the victim card and show
tearful funeral ceremonies ;
sobbing widows on TV.
(b) Claim an exaggerated retribution
on the enemy. "300 Pakistani
troops killed in retaliatory strike
etc, "
The simmering LOC is the biggest political capital for the regime because it re-enforces the communal divide within, The Indo-Pakistan dispute over Kashmir is not merely a territorial dispute but religious one and the vengeance for Pakistani actions must be wreaked on Indian Muslims and Indian Kashmiris. The pot is kept boiling through pre-planned pogroms, and lynchings, which adds further material to the hyper-propaganda mill.
The "retaliation " from the India is invariably against civilian targets on the Pakistani side where the Indian artillery takes a heavy toll of civilian lives with thousands killed on injured. Pakistani army casualties are relatively light because they are usually safe in hardened and concealed bunkers. Pakistan is completely hamstrung in any kind of significant retaliation on Indian civilians because they consider Kashmiris on the other side of the border as their own. The Pakistanis do retaliate against the Indian artillery fire as best as they can in an effort to save their own civilian lives but taking out well entrenched and hidden artillery positions in mountainous terrain is no easy task. While Pakistan maintains a rough parity in losses inflicted on its adversary and losses suffered it looses heavily in terms of loss of civilian lives and severe collateral damage to vital civilian infrastructure such as schools, hospitals, communications, air raid shelters, livestock, food stocks, water supply and civilian homes. With the destruction of housing, food stocks, hospitals and medical supplies there is an additional heavy loss of life due to exposure to weather and lack of medical care. However the civilian losses do not degrade Pakistani defensive capabilities much which remain relatively unaffected even under the most intense artillery fire.
Obvious differences between the LAC and LOC and what an "active" LAC would look like.
- The LAC except perhaps in South Tibet is very sparsely populated and mountainous. There is no civilian population on the Chinese side to target like on the LOC so there would be forays from the Indian side and sporadic sniper and mortar fire.

-There would be no periodic escalation like on the LOC. The escalation pattern on the LOC is a transition from sniper and mortar fire to rocket propelled grenades, to 23 mm modified AA guns ( in horizontal use) to the 105 mm towed artillery.. Unless a full fledged conflict breaks out the 105 mm artillery is the maximum firepower India directs at Pakistani civilians though 155 mm fire is directed on Pakistani army positions. MRLS or short range ballistic missiles have so far not been used on civilians by India though ATGMs in a horizontal mode have been used. In one spectacular case a Pakistani school bus ferrying about 30 children was quite expertly targeted from very long range by an ATGM.

- There could be brief special forces engagements with light weapons
with limited territory gains. Pakistani special forces ( which India calls BAT or Border Action Team) do engage in skirmishes with their Indian counterparts or sporadic attacks on Indian border posts, The objective is to divert India border posts, and allow passage of Kashmiri militants into Kashmir.The Pakistani objective is also a psy-op deterrence rather than an intention to inflict any significant damage of which Pakistan has a limited capability anyway. In any case Pakistan has learnt to live with its minimal loss of military personnel on the LOC, and is resigned itself to suffer the huge civilian losses India inflicts.
- It would be interesting to see if China would be somewhat like Pakistan in handling an active LAC . Of course ss mentioned China has zero risk of civilian casualties.
- Unlike 1962 there is no ethnic Chinese community in India left to be targeted in a state sponsored pogrom.

China isn't going to play the same LoC game. The sad truth is both India and Pakistan benefit from occasional killing of each other's soldiers and civilians.
 

Bright Sword

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From :pla wolf:

It is simply not possible for India to do that with China, because the power balance is so overwhelmingly stacked in Chinese favour.
-----------
ougah
India's government and military truly understand they don't stand a fraction of half a chance in an actual shooting war. Not even in their wildest of bhakt fart propelled bollywood dreaming. They've shown zero actual resolve and played up some pathetically pointless "capturing" of uncontested positions on their own side, while actually losing close to 1000 square kilometers north of Pangong lake up to finger 4. This is now pretty much accepted even in bhakt circles
Extremely valid points from plawolf and ougah and Mohsin77 agreed India has an advantage over Pakistan in the civilian death toll exchange.

To refer to the discussion related to my earlier posts, the current mindset in the Indian media, establishment. general population opinion and one section of the military has moved away from prudence and logic. Not entirely as in the case of Germany when it attacked the Soviet Union or like Japan when it attacked the USA as in Pearl Harbor, but that state of mind is not far off. In the twisted logic Pakistan would be India's "Poland" and a swift victory over Pakistan ( a full occupation) will signal to China and the world that India is not to be messed with. China would then face India alone and would likely settle its border with territorial concessions just as Czechoslovakia did with Germany in World War 2. It is now being widely discussed on Indian media that Pakistan is too economically and militarily weak to be any kind of a challenge and its nuclear and missile assets are no threat because these are a hoax. In any case Pakistan would like to survive as an occupied state rather than suffer destruction.
These are dangerous delusions being propagated 24 X 7 on Indian channels with retired army officers commenting.
Just like the Nazi's had a cult projection of superiority and living space the Indian mindset is being conditioned in a revisionist stance reliving the glory of the Vedic era over an Aryan land stretching from Iran to Burma and from Xinjiang to Sri Lanka.

There are self fulfilling prophecies and India like Germany and Japan in World War 2 might get the glorious Dharm Yudh ( War of Righteousness) it desires ... and like Germany and Japan get much more than it bargained for.
There are competent, patriotic, sensible Indian defense analysts, journalists, diplomats, and political figures who would like to save the region from the possible bloodbath.
Their voices however are feeble and getting feebler by the day. In the present scenario such persons are at grave risk of state persecution by imprisonment or worse being lynched by state sponsored street thugs.
A gloomy scenario is distasteful as it appears from the Indian mindset it is Pakistan rather than China that is at immediate risk of being attacked and severely hurt in a devastating war.
 

[witty username]

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Getting back to your points which preceded your question, there are a bunch of assumptions here that I don't agree with at all. The idea that the GCC supports pulling Pakistan away from China is completely unfounded. The GCC itself is getting closer to China, and will continue to do so as the US proceeds to make a mass exit from the 'greater middle east.' Secondly, whatever the Indian analysts think, the Israeli situation offers no helpful guidance to India, because US think-tanks themselves believe that Israel has no future, in the long-term. The same Stratfor analysts that are invited for interviews on Indian news shows have stated this in the past (I was a subscriber to Stratfor.) Opposition to Israel (as an independent political entity within our civilization borders) will never go away. Therefore, the Camp David Accords don't actually protect Israel. They give us the time we need to get our act together. It may take another century or two, but it's basically inevitable. "Israel" is nothing independent of the West, it is a pawn in a civilizational game that has been going on for a thousand years.

The whole Israel project was very foolish from the start, why create a country for Jews in the middle of a region where the people absolutely hate your kind? I think the other potential locations for a Jewish homeland were East Africa and Brazil.

Do you have any links to the US think tanks and their grim assessments of Israel's future? Israel seems only to he going from strength to strength, especially since 9/11 which, in Netanyahu's
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was a positive development for Israel, now we see the Arab states normalising relations with Israel one after another, Iran is the only bogey from where I stand, unless I am mistaken?
 

Mohsin77

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The whole Israel project was very foolish from the start, why create a country for Jews in the middle of a region where the people absolutely hate your kind?

It was a foolish project, but not for that reason. The Jews were running from a people which hated them much more than Muslims ever did. People today forget, Israelis are basically refugees, who ran away from the West. (Not just Nazis, even mainstream Christians.) Historically, the Jews always fared better in Muslim lands than they did under the Christians. The extreme vitriol against Jews only began after Israel was founded. If the Jews had migrated to Palestine (without conquering the land) and just lived amongst the Palestinians, like normal immigrants/refugees, it would've been fine. The foolishness was their conquest of strategic real-estate which they can never hope to keep in the long term.

Do you have any links to the US think tanks and their grim assessments of Israel's future?

It was a stratfor report that I received which went out to subscribers, many years back. I've since switched memberships to GPF, after Friedman left and started that other think tank, so I don't have access to stratfor archives. As far as I remember, I think Friedman wrote it.
 

Bright Sword

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To be honest i don't think there is significant & concrete US element behind India's "posturing" or whatever you call it. They would do it anyway with anyone. That's what they think of themselves. If you mean words or pompeo speeches by US elements that hyped their delusion, then it's different thing. Indians have long dream of "we are supah pawah bandwagon" thing though it changes name time to time like US -India -EU - Russia then US- India- EU- Japan... Then US-India-Israel...
There is some truth in this but the last thing India would want is to fight a two front war.
Which is why India is working hard to go to a one front solution with China ( preferably a stalemated front
favorable to India.
India would like to take Pakistan out of the equation with three general strategies:
1.,Get Pakistan into an Iran, North Korea or earlier Iraq style diplomatic and economic isolation with UN sanctioned arms embargoes and cause a complete degradation of Pakistan's defense capabilities. Then either by coercion or a brief military strike force Pakistan into concessions or even occupation ( Iraq),
2. Build up extreme pressure on Pakistan's borders with slow escalation of skirmishes, artillery exchanges, leading to heavy civilian losses beyond a level that Pakistan can sustain, especially if internal unrest against civilian deaths can be whipped up. This was tried in 2002 but then Pakistan had a martial law administration and political parties were in hibernation but the strategy nearly worked because Pakistan was willing for an accommodation.( Agra and Lahore summits) Unfortunately the Indian religious bigotry and ideologues triumphed and India backed out of an agreement hoping that Pakistan would weaken further over the long run and India could then get a better bargain.
3. The Israeli Egyptian diplomatic model as we have discussed in earlier posts.
 

Nobonita Barua

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Israel seems only to he going from strength to strength
From a totally outsider's point of view, Israel going from strength to strength is like a tree growing bigger in your backyard until you decide to cut it off.
From the beginning of time, anything that is israeli, west will get involved within it. If it's own going from strength to strength was remotely enough, it wouldn't need other countries to "normalize" their ties. They are living with people who will go to any length to annihilate them & rightly so, after all the things they have done.
My personal opinion is that, Israel got way too carried away under uni polar world led by US.
 
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