Ladakh Flash Point

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Temstar

Brigadier
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Fun fact: Tibetan old timers who were around in 1950 consider CCP to be literately 活菩萨 who free them from the yoke of slavery under the aristocracy. Like if you go into their home you will see on the wall photos of Dalai, Panchen and Chairman Mao together and they would pray to them every day.

In 1962 almost all the supplies that went to the front line were carried up over the mountains and into India on the back of Tibetans who volunteered for this work, partly because they feel they own a life debt to the CCP for freeing them, and partly because some of the old aristocracy who ruled them have fled into India and they want to see the PLA give them what for.

If you think Tibetans have any sympathy towards children of aristocrats who fled in 1950 and would want them back then you don't know anything about Tibetan history.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think it's a question of political goals; i.e, India has already achieved its goals by being an independent nation; everything else is epilogue. China, on the other hand, seeks development and modernity as a key goal.

What utter nonsense. Yes India acives it's goal by gaining independence. But so did China by winning wars against Japan imperialism and civil war.

You then set new goals, like how to better all the poor people, bring them out of poverty education. Etc. China did just that. While India also set similar goals like super duper power 2020. It failed dismally!
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Fun fact: Tibetan old timers who were around in 1950 consider CCP to be literately 活菩萨 who free them from the yoke of slavery under the aristocracy. Like if you go into their home you will see on the wall photos of Dalai, Panchen and Chairman Mao together and they would pray to them every day.

In 1962 almost all the supplies that went to the front line were carried up over the mountains and into India on the back of Tibetans who volunteered for this work, partly because they feel they own a life debt to the CCP for freeing them, and partly because some of the old aristocracy who ruled them have fled into India and they want to see the PLA give them what for.

If you think Tibetans have any sympathy towards children of aristocrats who fled in 1950 and would want them back then you don't know anything about Tibetan history.

Another inconvient truth that the West won't tell you about. The Tibetan selfdom system is nothing but slavery.
 

zszczhyx

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here is an article from Chinese scholar, I think this sums up China's view of the Sino Indian conflict. From March 2013 to April 2014, the author was the Second Secretary of the political office of the Embassy of PRC in India. Baidu translation below.
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Title: Lin MinWang:India wants to be a great power? There is still a long way to go
In the past two days, news from India and the border between China and India has suddenly increased again. What's more, the seriousness of the situation may be quite complicated.An important signal is that from August 31 to September 1, in just two days, the Western Theater of war, the Chinese Embassy in India and the Chinese Ministry of foreign affairs successively expressed their views on the consensus reached in the multi-level talks between the two sides at the early stage of the destruction of the Indian army on August 31, and illegally crossed the line again on the South Bank of Bangong Lake and near the reqin mountain pass, openly provoked, resulting in tense border situation and intensive warnings.
Senior Colonel Zhang Shuiyuan, spokesman of the western war zone, used "two serious" to define the Indian behavior: It has seriously violated China's territorial sovereignty and seriously damaged the peace and stability in the border areas between China and India. It not only directly points out the bad degree of Indian behavior, but also serves as an important reminder.It is worth noting that Mr. Zhang also used two words to describe Indian behavior: “treachery” and “act in bad faith”. If we say "two serious" is to illustrate the nature of the problem, the above-mentioned eight words show that the Indian side's illegal cross-border action completely abandoned its previous commitment, which is mutually verifiable with their own so-called "preemptive" mentioned by them later.

01 We underestimated the meanness of India's methods
In fact, India's despicability has always been like this. The war of 1962 has become a collective historical memory for the whole country of India. For so many years, India has never accepted this failure. This kind of reluctance is not only reflected in its self justification that "at that time, we were not ready at all, China won't win" or "we were preparing to act seriously, but as a result, China took the initiative to retreat". In fact, it also reflected in its many domestic policies, the most obvious of which was India's practices towards Chinese Indians. After the war of 1962, Chinese Americans in India were actually the group that suffered the most, and this kind of harm has actually continued to this day. Before the war, there were about 40000 Chinese Americans in India, and so far only less than 4000.
In 1959, India began to suspect the overseas Chinese in India, suspected that they might be Chinese spies, and began to arrest them. Six days after the war began in 1962, India issued laws and regulations for Chinese. It is stipulated that if one of the parents is a Chinese, then you are not considered an Indian Citizen regardless of whether you have acquired Indian nationality before.
1.png
So later, according to the so-called defense of India regulations, India arrested overseas Chinese in India on a large scale, with a total of more than 3000 people. What is the purpose of this? It's in exchange for prisoners of war.
During the Sino Indian War, China captured nearly 4000 Indian prisoners of war, but India did not capture one.
So India wanted to capture the overseas Chinese in India in this way to exchange prisoners of war with China. However, China treats Indian prisoners of war very favorably, giving them good food and drink, and treating their wounds and diseases. Where did India catch the Chinese and overseas Chinese?They were put in a concentration camp in Rajasthan, where many people were treated inhumanely, and more than 20 people died before and after. Later, China took back about 2000 overseas Chinese, and later mainly settled in Dali, Yunnan and Zhanjiang, Guangdong.
Some of the overseas Chinese went out from the concentration camps in India, and the situation was even worse. Why? Because at that time, India confiscated all the properties of Chinese companies and overseas Chinese in India in accordance with the administrative order of national defense regulations.2.png
A few years ago, there was a statistic that said that the total number of properties confiscated by Chinese citizens was about 149. For more than 50 years, expatriates in Indian and Chinese companies have asked the Indian government to return the property through various channels, but India has not paid attention to it.
As far as India's diplomacy is concerned, the war in 1962 broke India's dream of engaging in great power diplomacy, making India's status as a great power rapidly declined at that time. Because Nehru had always wanted to establish a third pole in the bipolar system, but after the outbreak of the war in 1962, he quickly allied with the United States, asked for military aid from the Soviet Union, and even asked the United States to protect its air defense. Therefore, India's nonalignment policy naturally went bankrupt.
India originally wanted to be nonaligned and to play with its relations with the major powers, but the war of 1962 broke this situation and made it unable to play the ball of great powers any more. It turned out that the United States wanted to help India to curb Communist China, but as a result, India lost miserably. Therefore, when it came to the Johnson administration, the United States believed that India did not have much strategic value. By the time of Nixon, the relationship between India and the United States was at its lowest point.
But on the other hand, the war of 1962 also changed the situation in which India was scattered in the past. On the contrary, the feeling of retaliation against China made all parties in India more united, and this influence has continued to this day.
 

zszczhyx

Junior Member
Registered Member
02 Two factors of India's constant provocation
Over the years, the border conflicts between China and India have been deliberately provoked by the Indian side, because our main attention is not at all on Sino-India border.

India's provocation mainly has two factors: internal and external. The external factor is that India has changed its relatively independent diplomatic strategy in recent years, and has taken a strong interest in the "India Pacific strategy" of the United States, and began to take the role of "good ally of the United States"; The internal factor is that India's fear of China's growing strength is increasing. The existence of China has seriously shaken India's self-confidence. Therefore, confrontation with China is needed to intensify contradictions and divert Indian people's attention from China's achievements.
After Trump came to power, he put forward the India Pacific strategy and regarded India as one of the pillars of the US India Taiwan strategy. India hesitated at the beginning, but after modi's second term of office began, India's strategy toward India and the Pacific was positively promoted. The more significant change in India's China policy is that it feels that India's position is completely consistent with that of the United States, and that it is also at the forefront to challenge China on many issues. In essence, BJP is more pro-American. It has got rid of the so-called independent and balanced diplomacy of India in the past. Although the traditional friendship with Russia is still maintained, its overall tone is following the United States.
On the other hand, the rise of China has brought great pressure to it, mainly the pressure of the power gap between China and India. If we calculate it from the beginning of India's reform and opening up in 1991, at that time, the strength comparison between China and India was about 1:1.2, and China was not much higher than it. But now China's GDP is five times its own, and its defense expenditure is three times that of it. China has a complete military industry system. 90% of China's weapons can be produced by itself, but 90% of India's military industry depends on imports. In this sense, India's growing gap from China is its biggest worry.
Plus, China has not yet shown signs of decline, but is becoming more and more energetic, which poses a great challenge to India's self-confidence. India has always been proud of its democratic system. It believes that democracy has brought together such diverse races, religions and languages in the country, and has developed a democratic economy. However, China does not have such a democratic system as India, but it has also made such great achievements, and the achievements are far ahead of India, which has caused a great impact on its system.

03 China's restraint and advantages
On the whole, China is relatively restrained on border issues, because the whole southwest is not the primary direction of China's strategy.
After the confidence building measures between China and India on the border in 1993, China actually withdrew a large number of military forces on the border because of the high cost of maintaining a large number of military forces in Tibet. But this has resulted in an absolute strength advantage over China on the border. If India wants to attack China, it can win quickly in the beginning. But this victory is unsustainable, because the supply capacity behind it is relatively weak. The advantage of China is that although China's front-line strength is relatively weak, it has a strong supply capacity. For example, a parachute brigade from Hubei, which we practiced before, can be transferred to the plateau in a few hours. This is an ability that India does not have.
On the border, China does not provoke and India does not dare to use force against China. Therefore, such a balance is formed, which is also the reason for China's excessive restraint.
Recently, India has crossed the line illegally for many times. It can not be ruled out that it wants to add chips to the unreasonable asking price for the next negotiation, so that it has more cards to play.
But don't forget that abiding by promises is one of the basic principles to be followed in the establishment of international relations.
For India, which wants to become a "great power", if it can even renege on the commitments it has just made, and even if its "ambition" is big and its mentality is often unbalanced or unhealthy, it is bound to be far away from its role as a great power.

(To be continued)
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
PLA is apparently upping the stake by deploying surface to air missile battery in Chumbi Valley.

In the event of open conflict, military action may not be concentrated in one area, but spread out over the border.
 

Inst

Captain
What utter nonsense. Yes India acives it's goal by gaining independence. But so did China by winning wars against Japan imperialism and civil war.

You then set new goals, like how to better all the poor people, bring them out of poverty education. Etc. China did just that. While India also set similar goals like super duper power 2020. It failed dismally!

The point is that after freedom, the Indians don't know what to do with themselves. China, at least, has a dream of a modern and prosperous China (the "China Dream") which has yet to be fulfilled. The Chinese state and society is in a tenuous situation wherein it hasn't achieved full modernity (i.e, lack of highly pronounced poverty, R&D competitiveness or efficiency in the first class) and is being barred by the threat of a United States desperate to protect its primacy.

In a way, India is a classic democratic society, i.e, its political and often social system is designed as a maintainer of the status quo, a Vaishnavism in the sense that Vishnu is the preserver, and thus somewhat conservative.

The problem, however, is that the India of 1947 that Indians may seek to preserve is a primitive shithole!
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
The point is that after freedom, the Indians don't know what to do with themselves. China, at least, has a dream of a modern and prosperous China (the "China Dream") which has yet to be fulfilled. The Chinese state and society is in a tenuous situation wherein it hasn't achieved full modernity (i.e, lack of highly pronounced poverty, R&D competitiveness or efficiency in the first class) and is being barred by the threat of a United States desperate to protect its primacy.

In a way, India is a classic democratic society, i.e, its political and often social system is designed as a maintainer of the status quo, a Vaishnavism in the sense that Vishnu is the preserver, and thus somewhat conservative.

The problem, however, is that the India of 1947 that Indians may seek to preserve is a primitive shithole!

I'm not sure you know China well at all. Economically China already achieved "1st world status". Yes they are backward areas such as south west, and pockets still remain. But overall, full modernity has already been achieved in the major cities of China. Just look at the transit system for example.

Whereas India, the democratic system that's been praised by India and the West is nothing but a sham. With whole villages being bought etc.

And you mentioned India is a conservative country. Well that included keeping and maintaining your precious caste system. Go tell the Dalits they lot is a good one because India's got democracy!
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Here is an article from Chinese scholar, I think this sums up China's view of the Sino Indian conflict. From March 2013 to April 2014, the author was the Second Secretary of the political office of the Embassy of PRC in India. Baidu translation below.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Title: Lin MinWang:India wants to be a great power? There is still a long way to go
In the past two days, news from India and the border between China and India has suddenly increased again. What's more, the seriousness of the situation may be quite complicated.An important signal is that from August 31 to September 1, in just two days, the Western Theater of war, the Chinese Embassy in India and the Chinese Ministry of foreign affairs successively expressed their views on the consensus reached in the multi-level talks between the two sides at the early stage of the destruction of the Indian army on August 31, and illegally crossed the line again on the South Bank of Bangong Lake and near the reqin mountain pass, openly provoked, resulting in tense border situation and intensive warnings.
Senior Colonel Zhang Shuiyuan, spokesman of the western war zone, used "two serious" to define the Indian behavior: It has seriously violated China's territorial sovereignty and seriously damaged the peace and stability in the border areas between China and India. It not only directly points out the bad degree of Indian behavior, but also serves as an important reminder.It is worth noting that Mr. Zhang also used two words to describe Indian behavior: “treachery” and “act in bad faith”. If we say "two serious" is to illustrate the nature of the problem, the above-mentioned eight words show that the Indian side's illegal cross-border action completely abandoned its previous commitment, which is mutually verifiable with their own so-called "preemptive" mentioned by them later.

01 We underestimated the meanness of India's methods
In fact, India's despicability has always been like this. The war of 1962 has become a collective historical memory for the whole country of India. For so many years, India has never accepted this failure. This kind of reluctance is not only reflected in its self justification that "at that time, we were not ready at all, China won't win" or "we were preparing to act seriously, but as a result, China took the initiative to retreat". In fact, it also reflected in its many domestic policies, the most obvious of which was India's practices towards Chinese Indians. After the war of 1962, Chinese Americans in India were actually the group that suffered the most, and this kind of harm has actually continued to this day. Before the war, there were about 40000 Chinese Americans in India, and so far only less than 4000.
In 1959, India began to suspect the overseas Chinese in India, suspected that they might be Chinese spies, and began to arrest them. Six days after the war began in 1962, India issued laws and regulations for Chinese. It is stipulated that if one of the parents is a Chinese, then you are not considered an Indian Citizen regardless of whether you have acquired Indian nationality before.
View attachment 63157
So later, according to the so-called defense of India regulations, India arrested overseas Chinese in India on a large scale, with a total of more than 3000 people. What is the purpose of this? It's in exchange for prisoners of war.
During the Sino Indian War, China captured nearly 4000 Indian prisoners of war, but India did not capture one.
So India wanted to capture the overseas Chinese in India in this way to exchange prisoners of war with China. However, China treats Indian prisoners of war very favorably, giving them good food and drink, and treating their wounds and diseases. Where did India catch the Chinese and overseas Chinese?They were put in a concentration camp in Rajasthan, where many people were treated inhumanely, and more than 20 people died before and after. Later, China took back about 2000 overseas Chinese, and later mainly settled in Dali, Yunnan and Zhanjiang, Guangdong.
Some of the overseas Chinese went out from the concentration camps in India, and the situation was even worse. Why? Because at that time, India confiscated all the properties of Chinese companies and overseas Chinese in India in accordance with the administrative order of national defense regulations.View attachment 63158
A few years ago, there was a statistic that said that the total number of properties confiscated by Chinese citizens was about 149. For more than 50 years, expatriates in Indian and Chinese companies have asked the Indian government to return the property through various channels, but India has not paid attention to it.
As far as India's diplomacy is concerned, the war in 1962 broke India's dream of engaging in great power diplomacy, making India's status as a great power rapidly declined at that time. Because Nehru had always wanted to establish a third pole in the bipolar system, but after the outbreak of the war in 1962, he quickly allied with the United States, asked for military aid from the Soviet Union, and even asked the United States to protect its air defense. Therefore, India's nonalignment policy naturally went bankrupt.
India originally wanted to be nonaligned and to play with its relations with the major powers, but the war of 1962 broke this situation and made it unable to play the ball of great powers any more. It turned out that the United States wanted to help India to curb Communist China, but as a result, India lost miserably. Therefore, when it came to the Johnson administration, the United States believed that India did not have much strategic value. By the time of Nixon, the relationship between India and the United States was at its lowest point.
But on the other hand, the war of 1962 also changed the situation in which India was scattered in the past. On the contrary, the feeling of retaliation against China made all parties in India more united, and this influence has continued to this day.
Good. This article mentions the inconvenient truth of India committing heinous crimes against humanity against ethnic Chinese in the country. I've known about this ugly Indian history for awhile but rarely discussed it. Its old history, but was so conveniently ignored by the "free world". What the "democratic" Indians did even under Congress rule is comparable to the Nazi progrom against the Jews. But India is a "democracy", so India could never be fascist, no matter how fascistic its actions are.
 
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