Ladakh Flash Point

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Nobino

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What happened at Spangur gap and Kala / Black top?, here the view of Shiv a military analyst..

Plenty of his video are on Chinese military, quite informative in depth detail, of-course one can disagree..
3 point from this video or stated by the "analyst" guy

1-- He is quoting "a report" that says "prisoners were taken", so does it mean he doesn't know for sure?
2-- He is saying "homesick" prisoners are already crying out loud "probably" , i am a bit confused.
3-- In his map, entire thing went down near finger 4, but the thing is, because of the height taken by "supremely fit & secretive vikas regiment" the entire area in between f4 to f8 is useless for China because indians can unleash "devastating firepower" now.

This is pretty much it, right?
 

Waqar Khan

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Analysis of Indian Military leadership in Indo China standoff published in one of the leading newspapers of Pakistan,offered for comments,please
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Complete article posted her

While dust was beginning to settle on the Depsang Plains in Eastern Ladakh, there are more reports of Indo-China tensions, especially south of Pangong Lake. Godi media went berserk and started projecting as if the Indian Army has conquered the entire Tibet autonomous region. Meanwhile a report published in a prestigious Indian newspaper, The Hindu, indicated that the Indian army had lost 1,000 square kilometres of area in Ladakh. However, the Godi media trolls were found to be paddling the narrative on social media that the loss of the area had actually taken place during the time of the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government and PM Modi should be absolved of this responsibility as India lost a few hundred square kilometres during the current standoff with China and bulk of the blame should be put on the previous government that was led by Congress. Yes, Modi, the great leader with a 56-inch broad chest, should be given all the credit for the Indian Army capturing a knoll of one square km south of Pangong Lake.

These reports may be good for media discourse, but they also indicate the way the Indian military leadership is quietly, but deliberately, left off the hook for military disasters. Sane and honest Indian defence and security experts have raised the issue of the failure of Indian military leadership and intelligence head honchos in a number of articles and talk-shows in Indian media.

Our June 19 article published in these columns after the Galwan debacle had highlighted the factor of accountability of the Indian military leadership and how Indian mainstream media was covering it. Indian defence analysts like Col Ajai Shukla and Pravin Sawhney have been criticising Indian leadership for the loss of face. While India was boasting about attacking G-B and AJK, it got a slap in the face from the Chinese Dragon. Today the Indian Army is demoralised and there is a growing call for Rajnath Singh, CDS General Bipin Rawat, Ajit Doval, the Army Chief, the Commander Northern Command and the Commander 14 Corps to step down, as they failed to appreciate the Chinese intent and prepare a contingency plan.

In order to go down to brasstacks of Indian military leadership, it is better to pitch its performance vis a vis the mission assigned.

Logically the mission assigned to the intelligence and military commanders of Indian establishment should read as: “Defend the territorial integrity of Indian Union and win the war or conflict, if imposed, on a victory note.” This mission when decomposed for formation commanders — commands, corps, divisions and brigades — translates into physical features with extents and depths specified up to rivers, hills, roads and passes. Hypothetically speaking, the mission assigned to 3 Division deployed along LAC in Ladakh could read as: “Defend area along LAC from Daulat Beg Oldie to patrolling point number 8 at Pangong Lake at all cost, deny any enemy penetration beyond line Daulat Beg Oldie, Galwan, PP 8 on Pangong So and create conditions for launching of 14 Corps, Northern Command or Army reserves.”

These are very precise mission statements; and entire defensive system, structure of forces and force posturing is worked out to minutest details. The area of responsibility is then divided into physical area of domination and areas of interest. Again hypothetically speaking, 14 Corps’ area of interest should include approximately 60 kms across the LAC into Chinese Western Command. The corps commander is supposed to deploy his surveillance effort (technical and human) and supplement it through the assets of RAW, Indian Air Force as well as aviation assets of the formation. This assortment of surveillance and intelligence gathering may include satellites, RPVs, quadcopters, radars as well as human intelligence of agents across the LAC.

Why we are going in details of the Indian military system and its formation is to highlight that military and intelligence commanders and intelligence agencies are equipped with best possible means to avoid surprise and build response in a comfortable timeframe.

Now we come to strategic, operational and tactical aspects of a typical defensive battle, especially when operations are conducted on high altitude and mountains. The time, space and relevant strength matrix, or TSR, is the most important aspect of military operation. And this gets added importance in a mountainous terrain. While appreciating the inhospitable terrain of Ladakh sector, a typical TSR matrix in a defensive battle is tabulated below:

RAW, as the frontline of intelligence gathering agency, is responsible for not only apprising the politico-military leadership of possible threat scenarios and intent of enemy, it is also supposed to precisely give the warning time of at least two weeks to formation commanders so that they can mount a suitable operational response.

Commander Northern Command and Commander 14 Corps should be able to get a warning time of deployment of enemy forces, at least ten days in advance, while using their own effort. Chinese build-up across the LAC took considerable time, however Indian military commanders from the CDS to Brigade did not place any forces to remain within the TSR matrix.

Suppose there was a political restrain imposed on Indian military commanders and they had their hands tight to avoid military confrontation with PLA, no one stopped them from taking basic operational and tactical measures to make sure they achieved their military mission, defending area of responsibility at all costs.

Giving the margin to Indian Army and formation commanders, Northern Command, 14 Corps and 3 Division could have thwarted Chinese operations through basic tactical level actions after Chinese incursions across the LAC at four places. The logical response within the desired TSR could have been mounted as following:

Brigade commanders responsible for Depsang , Galwan or Pangong sub-sectors should have launched a counterattack within 48 hours on Chinese incursions; GOC of 3 Division should have restored the situation within 3 to 4 days and Commander 14 Corps could have launched his counterattack within a weeks’ time; and Indian Army could have moved strategic reserves to restore the situation within a fortnight.

Today, four months have passed since reports of Chinese incursions and entire war machine of the third largest military in the world seems to have been paralysed.

While giving credit to Col Babu and his subordinates who lost their lives in the boulders of Galwan River, Indian intelligence establishment and military leadership have been thoroughly exposed for its poor foresight, bad planning, lack of decision-making and paralysis of the entire chain of command.

So, when Indian Godi media blames the UPA and deflects the attention away from intelligence and military failure, one must realise that it is the failure of RAW and Indian military who gobbles 71 billion dollars every year and fails to defend the territorial integrity of the Indian Union while the 800 million poor Indians live on 1kg Daal and 5kg rice per person per month doled out to it by Mr Modi.

Published in The Express Tribune, September 4th, 2020.
 

N00B

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I'd argue a bit problem with India is how it received independence, i.e, it received independence from Britain by begging.

True, and even then it only got independence because Britain was curb stomped by two rival powers. With WW2, there won't be an independent India/Pakistan/Burma in the way they exist today. And this fact is more important than most people realize. Because they didn't win power by military victory, Indian government never had enough legitimacy.

India, unlike China, never developed the institutions for governance

It most certainly did. The real problem lies elsewhere. India signally failed to address its 'contradictions' - to use the old man's word - like China.

The key mistake people make when they talk about China is that they assume history began at 1979. Without the social reforms during Mao, admittedly extreme at times, there wouldn't have been any Chinese miracle. Indian failed to address even the caste issue. Oh sure, there was no shortage of platitudes and laws. But unlike the CPC, INC lacked one crucial component needed to drive the reforms - sufficient legitimacy.

The one area where INC managed to find some success, even if temporarily, was to stop Indian Muslims getting completely annihilated after 1947. But even that looks uncertain now.

the Indians had a chance at independence way earlier than 1947, but Indian independence activists were horrified at the prospect of sectarian violence

Are you talking about the movement in early 1920s? No. 90% chance it would have been crushed pronto. Which is the reason why Gandhi backed off. Smart call.
 

Nobino

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India is partially unified by a shared cultural background (Hinduism and reactions to Hinduism),
Don't you think this statement is self contradictory? "Partially unified"?!!
From what i have seen it's their religion(which they don't think is a religion) is a root cuase of the regional "diversity" / division
in their country.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
The only thing that keeps India together are the railroads and hate for Pakistan (and now China).

LKY:
In one interview, Lee said India was "not one country" but "32 separate nations".

He was once asked if he could replicate Singapore's success in India. He had laughed out loud, but his answer was clear: No.

"No Single person can change India. If you compare with China, 90 per cent speak one language. It is a much easier country to lead than India. India consists of many different nation groups and dialects," he had said.
India is a creation of the British Raj and the railway system it built, and therefore it has its limitations.
 

Inst

Captain
True, and even then it only got independence because Britain was curb stomped by two rival powers. With WW2, there won't be an independent India/Pakistan/Burma in the way they exist today. And this fact is more important than most people realize. Because they didn't win power by military victory, Indian government never had enough legitimacy.



It most certainly did. The real problem lies elsewhere. India signally failed to address its 'contradictions' - to use the old man's word - like China.

The key mistake people make when they talk about China is that they assume history began at 1979. Without the social reforms during Mao, admittedly extreme at times, there wouldn't have been any Chinese miracle. Indian failed to address even the caste issue. Oh sure, there was no shortage of platitudes and laws. But unlike the CPC, INC lacked one crucial component needed to drive the reforms - sufficient legitimacy.

The one area where INC managed to find some success, even if temporarily, was to stop Indian Muslims getting completely annihilated after 1947. But even that looks uncertain now.



Are you talking about the movement in early 1920s? No. 90% chance it would have been crushed pronto. Which is the reason why Gandhi backed off. Smart call.

I think it's a question of political goals; i.e, India has already achieved its goals by being an independent nation; everything else is epilogue. China, on the other hand, seeks development and modernity as a key goal.
 

Sardaukar20

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I'm sure if the Indian plays the Tibetan separatist card, China will make them pay in Kashmir and Assam.



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An excerpt from the Global Times article:
At present, the SFF's importance has declined significantly in Indian army and it no longer plays any important role. The number of the unit has also dramatically reduced, and at present the unit has at most 1,000 offspring of the
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, he said.

Indian army does not trust foreign soldiers, thus most of the ethnic Tibetans had very low status in the military. Becoming a member of the unit was only their means to make a living, Qian said.

However, some foreign media including Reuters boasted their importance and claimed the Tibetan "government-in-exile" support them in fighting shoulder to shoulder with India against China.

After a Reuters reporter asked Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying to comment on it at Wednesday's media briefing, Hua said we firmly oppose any country providing convenience in any form for the "Tibet secessionist" forces' separatist activities.

To me, it does look like India is indeed playing the Tibetan separatist card and China knows this. But the SFF "Special Forces" are instead more like cannon fodders. I have already suspected that Tibetans have low status in the Indian Army. This is a hallmark of the caste-based, fascist state of BJP India. Disgusting.

I won't be surprised that in time to come, a "Free Tibet Army" could be formed by India in collaboration with the CIA. India can use this militant group to perform the dirty work of fighting and killing PLA troops and terrorizing people in China. Similar to how the USA and Turkey uses the "Free Syrian Army" to fight and terrorize Syria. Its all for the purpose of plausible deniability. It gives India a convenient and sneaky way to militarily hurt the PLA and China without resorting to a risky war. Then, India and USA spin this to say: "The freedom-loving people of Tibet have risen up against the evil CCP, so those evil PLA soldiers deserved to die, and the blood of those poor Chinese civilians killed are on the hands of the CCP!". The end game wet dream for India is off-course to have the PLA weakened or distracted badly enough for their real military to move in an seize Chinese territories, and I dare say: "Liberate Tibet".

I kinda hope that India won't go down this path to hell, but there are some glaring tell-tale signs that India is going try it:
1) They have already mobilized Tibetan-Indian "protesters" to stage some vile anti-China protest. Their media makes no mistake with presenting them as: "Tibetans protests against China".
2) Their media is re-hyping up the "Free Tibet" narrative against China.
3) They have employed the SFF in the latest clash with China. Probably as a trial-run.
4) They seem to be cheer leading the Tibetan Government In-Exile, giving them airtime and political support.
5) All of these is happening with the tacit, and soon-to-be tangible support from Western governments, especially the US.

India is forgetting that China too had an inglorious history of playing this dirty game of arming rebel or militants in foreign countries. China have (rightly or wrongly) armed and trained the various communist militants in Indochina during the Vietnam War, and also the Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet-Afghan War.

If India really wants to go ahead with this dirty game, I can no longer see why China should be held back to give them a taste of their own medicine. China could offer covert support to rebels in Kashmir and Nagaland. These two regions are close to the Chinese border and share borders with Pakistan (enemy country) and Myanmar (unfriendly country). Just supply these rebels with old Chinese and Soviet weapons that can be easily found on the black market. If they can score victories in India, they could then form China-friendly secession states between India and China that can act as a buffer. Then India's back-stabbing game with China will get even messier than it bargains for.
 
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