Ladakh Flash Point

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Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
the problem is that the Indian masses and media are in a frenzy for actions against China.
The Indian government and military are under strong irresistible pressure to take irrational actions, likely against their good judgement.
so they might go for the blockade, with or without regional support.

I don't understand all these talks of blockades. To do an effective blockades, you'll need a string navy to back it up. Particularly going up against PLAN where even the U.S. would think twice. Where's India's strong navy?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
As I have mentioned before. The Brahmos is quite overrated for use as a land attack weapon against the PLA. The closest example of using a Brahmos-type missile for land strikes is the P-800 Oniks in the Bastion coastal defence system used by Russia in 2016 in Syria. That is Syria, a country with relatively flat terrain. The Russians boast about this strike only once. After that, they went back to using their much more celebrated Kalibr sub-sonic cruise missiles for the land attack role. This is kind of a hint of how even the Russians don't really fancy using Mach 3.0 AshM for land attacks.

The Brahmos, despite all the improvements is still a Mach 3.0 AshM. It is designed to fly over open terrain like seas. I am very doubtful, that it can fly around the mountains of Kashmir at Mach 3.0. So it would most likely go for a lofted trajectory, like a pseudo balistic missile. This gives Chinese missile defense systems an easier job of spotting and intercept these missiles.

Also the Brahmos has a 200kg Amour-Piercing Warhead. Note that not all 200kg is HE, there is a good chance that 150kg is for the heavy metal penetrator. Against enemy ship, this missile is truly devastating. Against large areas like land bases, this kind of warhead is very limited. Maybe a more HE dedicated 200kg warhead could be fitted and give it respectable impact performance. But it still compares poorly against Kalibr and the CJ series cruise missiles. The CJ-10 subsonic cruise missiles could carry a 500kg warhead. And I'm speculating here that in an anti-air base mission, cluster sub-munitions could be fitted for bombing vast areas of soft targets.

India has done multiple successful trials of the Nirhbay missile. So there is a good chance they could fast track the missile for deployment in an event of war with China. The missiles may be overrated after all. But it is still important that China prepare too for those missiles to be used against them at some point.

Nirbhay would be far more effective than Brahmos simple because of attack profiles allowing it to evade detection much better but they have not put it into service because it doesn't work well enough yet. It flies and can maybe work in the best of conditions on the best of days but there's a reason IA has not received a single operational piece of Nirbhay.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Yes MCTR is non binding and even if it were a binding agreement, can't count on Brahmos being limited to 300km which it almost certainly is not.

I would not bet on it. MCTR is not legally binding, but it exists for a reason and there are serious real world consequences to breaching it.

If Russia breached MCTR, America can retaliate by selling long range cruise missiles to hostile Russian neighbours like Ukraine. Would Russia risk Ukrainian tomahawks for India?

Moreover, India has no leverage to force Russia to breach MCTR because it already bought and paid for Brahmas. That’s like going back to your car dealership and demanding they add the latest features on your year-old purchase that you have already paid for in full.

Yes, Russia can breach MCTR if it wants, but why would it want to do so for India after they have already secured sales?

And that’s not even considering direct pressure from China.

But Brahmos is poor basis for a cruise missile since it needs to fly high to achieve its speed over land, which makes them easy to detect. Shooting them down would be more challenging due to their speeds, but Chinese SAMs and air defences would have had performance against supersonic missiles as a key design requirement, which they could, and does regularly verify in tests against their own supersonic cruise missiles.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Regarding the interception of cruise missiles, in general, it's a sketchy proposition. Leaving aside decoys, which competent forces would use to saturate Air Defense systems, cruise missiles are exceedingly difficult to detect due to an inherently small RCS and no active emissions for the majority of the flightpath. So interception is a long shot, especially over land, in their terrain-following phase. Even for AWACS overhead it would be hard to track CMs against the clutter, even on flat terrain, and the Himalayas are anything but flat. It's great terrain for masking cruise missile attacks, although their range would suffer. This problem is only going to get worse for the defending side with time, as hypersonic missiles and glide vehicles come online.

The best way to defeat cruise missiles is to attack their launch platforms and cripple the enemy's C4I networks, before they launch them. If the enemy launches first, be prepared to take the hits. Even if some are intercepted, most will be expected to get through. All of this works against India. The few cruise missiles they have aren't enough to stop a multi-dimensional Chinese onslaught, and I fully expect that if war becomes inevitable, it will not begin on India's terms. I'll stick to my assessment from March/April though, posturing aside, there will be no war anytime soon. We are in the set-up and positioning phase.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
I don't understand all these talks of blockades. To do an effective blockades, you'll need a string navy to back it up. Particularly going up against PLAN where even the U.S. would think twice. Where's India's strong navy?
India has always talked about blockades since god knows when. It's just shamelessly stealing a US strategy on fighting a naval war with China. It just sounds so powerful to them: Strangling China's economy with the mighty Indian Navy.

Since India always thinks it is a 'Superpowah'. Logic and rationality is sadly lacking among its leaders, military staffs, and bakhts. Stupidity is not new for Indian leaders. They have just launched a vicious trade war with their biggest trade partner and investor. I would not be too surprised if the bloodthirsty Indian bakhts could one day push their retarded leaders to try their luck with the unthinkable.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
I would not bet on it. MCTR is not legally binding, but it exists for a reason and there are serious real world consequences to breaching it.

If Russia breached MCTR, America can retaliate by selling long range cruise missiles to hostile Russian neighbours like Ukraine. Would Russia risk Ukrainian tomahawks for India?

Moreover, India has no leverage to force Russia to breach MCTR because it already bought and paid for Brahmas. That’s like going back to your car dealership and demanding they add the latest features on your year-old purchase that you have already paid for in full.

Yes, Russia can breach MCTR if it wants, but why would it want to do so for India after they have already secured sales?

And that’s not even considering direct pressure from China.

But Brahmos is poor basis for a cruise missile since it needs to fly high to achieve its speed over land, which makes them easy to detect. Shooting them down would be more challenging due to their speeds, but Chinese SAMs and air defences would have had performance against supersonic missiles as a key design requirement, which they could, and does regularly verify in tests against their own supersonic cruise missiles.

At the risk of being off topic...
US sell Tomahawks to Ukraine? How will they pay for them? Pierogis?
I don't mean to look down on them, but most of Russia's "Hostile neighbours" are not even paper tigers.
They are maybe little dogs in tiger costumes.
They (Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, etc.) don't have the economic means to buy such weapons, they basically are NATO bases, which means Tomahawks are already there.

MCTR breach has no consequences (at this point).
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
So without this flash point going hot, India is just going to leave their 100k+ troops at the border to freeze and starve over the winter?

It's a clever strategy, another replay of forcing JASDF to exhaust itself around Diaoyu Island if this one plays out.

It might be worse than exhaustion. Conditions at Diaoyu Island are way better than those of Ladakh. Improperly supplied troops have a very high chance of dying from fatigue and exposure.
 
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