Ladakh Flash Point

Phead128 said:

If India can spend $250 million on a single unit of 4th gen, then you really have to wonder if PAKFA FGFA really must suck for them to abandon it.

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FishWings said:

I would even say that the J-11B is probably more capable than the F-15C from the 1980s due to being newer. And I definitely agree that the J-11BG would have the decisive edge against the F-15C.



For the other fighters you mentioned, other users have stated that J-10C is more or less comparable with the Rafale (especially if even newer versions of the J-10 enter service). The F-16V is somewhat overrated and I have no doubts that the J-10C is at least slightly superior to it overall. Why? The J-10C benefits from reduced RCS, superior kinematic performance (although less relevant in modern aerial combat), superior weapons suite, and has IRST integrated. F-16V is a significant upgrade over older F-16C/D Block 52, but compared to the upgrades on the J-10C, the improvements are relatively limited in comparison. The F-21 is still vaporware and I doubt it would ever be inducted into Indian service. It would be a critical logistical error to induct yet another plane that their pilots have no experience with in large numbers. The relatively limited number of Rafales is probably enough of a headache, but at least they have prior experience with French Mirages. And as far as I know, the F-15EX is basically the American counterpart to the J-16.



All of the advantages of the J-11D that you mentioned here are already present in the form of the J-16, which has reduced RCS, better avionics, far better payload, and superior engines. The only difference is that it is a tandem-seated rather than a single-seater, but that does not imply a disadvantage (except maybe slightly reduced kinematic performance and slightly shorter range). J-16 can easily perform air superiority missions equally as good as the J-11D, and there is no indication that having another pilot would somehow reduce that capability. On the other hand, by having another pilot, the J-16 can also ground strike missions better than the J-11D. And it is already established that the J-16 is the ordinance carrier for the J-20 and AWACS. So really, it is actually the J-16 that negates the benefits of inducting the J-11D. The J-11BG is just a midlife upgrade for the J-11B that would further reduce the need for J-11D (in case the J-11D was somehow more cost-efficient than the J-16), because the set of upgrades of the J-11BG would probably be comprised of most of the improvements of the J-11D, barring reduced RCS (which might be partially negated by the RAM coating that is almost certain to be on the BG version).

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Mohsin77 said:

But they didn't get any ToT. That's the weird part. That was supposed to be part of the local manufacturing deal which never happened. That's why it's crazy that India went with Dassault. Seriously, who pays 250 million for a 4th gen aircraft?! That's the same price of an F-22 Raptor, adjusted for inflation. At this price-point, the US might even sell F-15s to North Korea lolz.

This is why there was a huge investigation that weirdly got shot down by their supreme court. India has a history of major corruption scandals in procurement. Western manufacturers are dying to sell aircraft to India, so I don't think they have a lack of options. The French, with an inferior product, and a much higher pricepoint, got the deal. That's the sketchy part.

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Petrolicious88 said:

Don’t ever underestimate your adversary. The Rafael will be equipped with the Meteor, and Hammer.

Yes. The Rafael with its radar and the meteor missile is a major upgrade. No doubt about that. We can’t underestimate the range and accuracy of that middle once Indian amass sufficient quantities of it.

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Waqar Khan said:

Any news on latest round of talks between China and India? Indian media is already perceiving that the deadlock will result into Indian deployment for a long haul.India is thinning out 10000 troops from Occupied Kashmir and claiming that they are not needed any more.In my assessment,India would need 30000 additional troops to deploy on LAC with China to see through the coming winters,this first batch of 10000 troops is to beef up LAC.No holidays though

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plawolf said:

The Indians managed to negotiate pretty good ToT and industrial offset terms on their original MRCA deal, but then they tried to be slimy by insisting Dassault be legally and financially responsible for everything to do with the production of the fighters, including work done by Indian companies on their part of the production.

That was an absolutely outrageous ask that no sane company would ever agree to as that would be like a blank cheque for the Indian counter parties to fuck them over like crazy.

Under that agreement, the Indian side can embezzle all the money and literally present cardboard versions of the parts they are supposed to be making, and it would be up to the French to make good that ‘defect’.

The Indians tried to play hardball by abruptly cancelling the whole MRCA when they couldn’t get France to agree to their ridiculous demands on manufacturing liability, but then had to come crawling back after their PAKFA pipe dream went belly up.

I suspect a sizeable part of the stupidly high unit price got these 36 Rafales is a arsehole tax the French added for all the BS the Indians tried to pull earlier.

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