Ladakh Flash Point
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Rafale Rafale Rafale. All we're hearing from the Indians now. It's there to make up for and hide the IAF's deficiencies. Guys it's 5 freaking Rafales with only a few months of training in total. At its strongest point, it will be 36 trained up and well equipped Rafales. PLAAF already has over 100 J-10C and been in service for over 2 years now.
The Rafale is about as modern a fighter as the J-10C given the upgrade cycles. Rafale's weight is about a tonne greater, dry thrust at 100KN max total with J-10C's around 80KN with WS-10 and afterburner Rafale at 150KN with J-10 at 135KN. AESA size goes to the J-10C but radar capability isn't all about size. However this is France's first fighter AESA and China's second after the J-16's. J-10B also played around with a PESA. Chinese ESA technology really outshines France's if we consider missile seeker AESA, shipborne AESA, SAM radars. Simply when it comes to radars, China is among the leaders. Meteor's range is roughly 170km while the PL-15's is 150km and uses a second "stage" boost to pick up its energy which almost balances out Meteor's ramjet propulsion energy advantage, rough internet numbers but Meteor doesn't have very modern seekers yet. Rafale's SPECTRA is just a well marketed name for sensor fused suite of very conventional equipment that the Mirage series were sort of lacking. Both fighters aren't that far apart where the Indians can ignore J-10 to immediately compare their Rafale with the J-20. They're absolutely kidding themselves when they say the Rafale beats the J-20. The Rafale could barely win against J-10C convincingly. Now remember the numerical difference between the two (5 Rafales vs over 100 J-10C to 36 Rafales vs probably close to 200 J-10C by that time) and the fact that PAF exposed the entire IAF as incapable of shooting down a single JF-17 inside Indian airspace, with their old superstar Su-30MKI and its surrounding fleet of duds.
The Rafales are aimed towards Pakistan not China. The chasm between IAF and PLAAF is embarrassingly huge despite what Indian ex air whatever like to say in front of their chest thumping press. Pakistan can more easily finance a counter to Rafale because the Indians put an RPG to their own foot when they paid close to $250 million per Rafale but PAF has always been a lot more cash strapped than IAF. What it chooses should be a 5th gen but the J-35 isn't available yet. It is expedited and should be ready pretty soon but I think SAC is focusing on developing and delivering the PLAN variant as priority rather than a land based air superiority fighter for export or Pakistan. So there may be some truth in PAF looking at J-10C as some stopgap. If it's really intended to save that money for a soon to arrive J-35, it'll be running the risk of IAF Rafales turning the tide enough to overwhelm what the PAF currently operate. Block 3 JF-17 also isn't ready yet and by next year when it arrives, IAF will have more Rafales and more familiarity with them.
The Rafale is about as modern a fighter as the J-10C given the upgrade cycles. Rafale's weight is about a tonne greater, dry thrust at 100KN max total with J-10C's around 80KN with WS-10 and afterburner Rafale at 150KN with J-10 at 135KN. AESA size goes to the J-10C but radar capability isn't all about size. However this is France's first fighter AESA and China's second after the J-16's. J-10B also played around with a PESA. Chinese ESA technology really outshines France's if we consider missile seeker AESA, shipborne AESA, SAM radars. Simply when it comes to radars, China is among the leaders. Meteor's range is roughly 170km while the PL-15's is 150km and uses a second "stage" boost to pick up its energy which almost balances out Meteor's ramjet propulsion energy advantage, rough internet numbers but Meteor doesn't have very modern seekers yet. Rafale's SPECTRA is just a well marketed name for sensor fused suite of very conventional equipment that the Mirage series were sort of lacking. Both fighters aren't that far apart where the Indians can ignore J-10 to immediately compare their Rafale with the J-20. They're absolutely kidding themselves when they say the Rafale beats the J-20. The Rafale could barely win against J-10C convincingly. Now remember the numerical difference between the two (5 Rafales vs over 100 J-10C to 36 Rafales vs probably close to 200 J-10C by that time) and the fact that PAF exposed the entire IAF as incapable of shooting down a single JF-17 inside Indian airspace, with their old superstar Su-30MKI and its surrounding fleet of duds.
The Rafales are aimed towards Pakistan not China. The chasm between IAF and PLAAF is embarrassingly huge despite what Indian ex air whatever like to say in front of their chest thumping press. Pakistan can more easily finance a counter to Rafale because the Indians put an RPG to their own foot when they paid close to $250 million per Rafale but PAF has always been a lot more cash strapped than IAF. What it chooses should be a 5th gen but the J-35 isn't available yet. It is expedited and should be ready pretty soon but I think SAC is focusing on developing and delivering the PLAN variant as priority rather than a land based air superiority fighter for export or Pakistan. So there may be some truth in PAF looking at J-10C as some stopgap. If it's really intended to save that money for a soon to arrive J-35, it'll be running the risk of IAF Rafales turning the tide enough to overwhelm what the PAF currently operate. Block 3 JF-17 also isn't ready yet and by next year when it arrives, IAF will have more Rafales and more familiarity with them.
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I have far more confidence in the abilities of PAF. They've proven themselves and PLAAF pilots always speak well of their abilities and probably learn invaluable lessons from the PAF. I'd put money on PL-15, AESA equipped JF-17 block 3 operated by PAF over any IAF Rafale. If India ever finds itself going on another adventure into Pakistan, they'll be busy hiding shot down Rafales. Let's not forget B S Dhanoa is the man who proudly held up the wreckage of an AMRAAM and the IAF denied they lost any plane and any pilot until they couldn't deny anymore. The Su-30MKI was also shot down. Why would Pakistan announce that and then set up a kill memorial? Why would two Su-30MKI pilots mysteriously and conveniently be announced dead two weeks after the combat?
The same morons that said they used the Su-30MKI's antiquated radar to detect and verify the ID of a J-20 flying well over 100KM away and the same morons who supported Modi's suggestion of using clouds to hide IAF from enemy radar, are the people saying the Rafale definitely 100% surely is better than J-20 in almost every way. Riiiiiight.
The same morons that said they used the Su-30MKI's antiquated radar to detect and verify the ID of a J-20 flying well over 100KM away and the same morons who supported Modi's suggestion of using clouds to hide IAF from enemy radar, are the people saying the Rafale definitely 100% surely is better than J-20 in almost every way. Riiiiiight.
It amazes me that everyone's so far ignored the counter strike options for PLA if any fighting is to happen. We're all fixated on how the PLAAF will deal with IAF numerical superiority. We've forgotten that if the Indians lose the initial confrontations, they are gone. There is nothing standing between PLAAF and New Delhi in terms of resistance to air superiority. India's more prolific SAM system I think is the Akash missile system which is a copy of the absolutely ancient 1960s Kub missile system down to the exact dimensions of the missiles themselves. The radars and guidance are 1980s stuff and the Indians don't have that many of these 30km ranged "beasts" 
For these reasons India will not fight unless the are heaping in on a US China war.
SPYDER is basically Derby and Python missiles which the PLA have had access to thanks to Israel in the past. It's also super short ranged and like the Akash/Kub, antiquated and very low energy around max accelerated to speeds of mach 2.5. Compare it to the mach 4 KE of missiles like HQ-9 and HQ-16 and consider the relative abundance of Chinese air defense systems, if there was a need to equalize, air defense is something the Indians severely lack.
It's funny the Russians have slowed their delivery of the S-400 to India and who cares really anyway. China's had the S-400 for years and trained against it the entire time. India should buy some PAC-3 immediately!
For these reasons India will not fight unless the are heaping in on a US China war.
SPYDER is basically Derby and Python missiles which the PLA have had access to thanks to Israel in the past. It's also super short ranged and like the Akash/Kub, antiquated and very low energy around max accelerated to speeds of mach 2.5. Compare it to the mach 4 KE of missiles like HQ-9 and HQ-16 and consider the relative abundance of Chinese air defense systems, if there was a need to equalize, air defense is something the Indians severely lack.
It's funny the Russians have slowed their delivery of the S-400 to India and who cares really anyway. China's had the S-400 for years and trained against it the entire time. India should buy some PAC-3 immediately!
PAF showed that it is very weak in BVR on 27 Feb 2019.
Despite possesing a 6:1 aerial superiority (24 F-16s & JFTs vs just 4 Su-30 & Mirage -2000) PAF completely failed to put even a scratch on a single Su-30.
Despite possesing a 6:1 aerial superiority (24 F-16s & JFTs vs just 4 Su-30 & Mirage -2000) PAF completely failed to put even a scratch on a single Su-30.
If PAF was so weak in BVR why did IAF fail to achieve a single scratch on a PAF fighter despite such a target rich environment? Despite Mirage 5 and JF-17 going into India? F-16s were firing old AMRAAMs and reportedly stayed within Pakistani airspace while JF-17 and Mirage 5 flew into India. You'd think if PAF is weak in BVR this is relative to IAF's strength in BVR right? So why didn't IAF achieve any Mirage 5 or JF-17 kills even though it could have been closer ranged BVR. JF-17 would have been keeping MKIs, Mirage 2000s, and Mig-21s out of the way the whole time and succeeded. So if PAF is weak in BVR, IAF cannot even do BVR.
I've never heard about that and couldn't find anything after a quick google search. Can you provide any links?
Even PAF admitted they did not cross LoC.
Anyways IAF waa outnumbered 6:1 temporarily so it was not going to get into a fight against such odds. Thus IAF sent 24-28 jets as reinforcements from other states but by the time they arrived PAF had fled.
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