Ladakh Flash Point

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Bob Smith

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I wonder what Russia's stance would be if large number of Su-30MKIs were annihilated by J-20s and J-16s using PL-15. On the ground, the enhanced 105mm round from the Type 15 easily penetrate the frontal armors of the T-90S. That would be a slap in the face for the Russian armament industry, as more of their businesses could be "stolen" by their Chinese competitors around the world. If India were to lose, it would also symbolize that the Chinese conventional armament industry has surpassed those of its former big brother.
"Indian pilots are terrible."
 

Kunal Biswas

New Member
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Don`t ask for spoon feeding please, you can google that much ..

Thank you..

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Care to read my post again..

source "I" to begin with.Not much in it to refrain others from "jumping on gun" i would say.
Somebody should "report" from better source than "I" if they want others to refute it credibly without "jumping on gun"

What's the point of reporting it if you think it's already outdated?
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
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If i am not wrong, IAF got 400 R-27EA far back as 2012..

There's no reliable source for this, plus it doesn't make any sense. The IAF clearly prefers the R-77, which was the only active radar AAM included in its 'emergency' order last year. If it operated the R-27EA it would've included them in this order:
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The 400 R-77s in 2019 brought its total acquisition to around 900, which is still very anemic for its 380+ MKIs/Mig-29s/Bisons. For comparison, the PAF acquired 700 AMRAAMs for its 70+ Vipers.
 

Ash the rational

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The Indian media and diplomats are conveniently hiding the fact that the root cause of the recent border clash is abrogation of Article 35A and 370 to change unilaterally the status of disputed region of Jammy & Kashmir and Ladakh to be union territory. Moreover hurling threats from ruling BJP leaders and military generals even in parliament and media to snatch Azad Jammu Kashmir from Pakistan and Aksai Chin from China. Indian ruling class thought with increasing US support and backing they can change the status queue In Himalaya.

China should be careful of not trusting Indian sweet talking of peace and tranquility (of no kinetic action meaning no active military operation or gun firing) in Himalayan regions. As Himalaya is the weakest link of Indian defense, China should not give this luxury to India. With Indo-Pacific strategy and quad, India can put formidable obstacle for China in trade and military operation through India ocean and Malacca straight as well as in South China sea, at least that is plan of USA. So to compensate it China should put more pressure on Indian in Himalyan and North East region by actively supporting secession and separatism in Kashmir, Assam, Nagaland, Mizoram etc and try to cut India in sizes. This will keep India busy with internal issues rather than advancing China Containment policy.
Goodluck with cutting and chopping and whatever you have in your evil mind.
There is no difference between indian who troll on twitter.You are chinese version.
Just because someone dont agree with your perception or opinion it shouldnt instigate hate in you.There are many human beings living in this world and EVERYONE WILL HAVE DIFFERENT THOUGHTS AND DIFFERENT PERCEPTIVES ON ANY GIVEN SITUATIONS.Now this can be applied to present conflict too.
We have existed with China with many mellinneal years and without any conflict .


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Ash the rational

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Who says this is out of hate? We want to dismember India because it's a monstrous entity that should be ended so the people enslaved by it can be free. Free the Kashmiris, free the Assamese, free the Keralans, free the Bengals, free everybody enslaved by Delhi. We say this out of love and humanity.
Thanks for your concern Lol.
Goodnight
 

Inst

Captain
I suggest you tame down your hyperbole statements if you wish to be taken seriously. Slaughtering is a strong statement to make especially when you are only making a superficial case in support of your assertions.

Missile configuration load out is finite and more so when operating from high altitude airbases as with the Chinese in this situation. Just because there is a probable range advantage does not necessary equate to an exchange advantage. There is no historical record of a missile kill beyond 100 kms and the PL-15 will not be changing history. What PL-15 does is that it changes tactical deployment because of the expanded envelope that such a threat might present. The reason the PK falls as the range increase is because the party being targeted has a say in the outcome. The other party knows it is being targeted and will employ counter measures. Given the low PK of an extended range shot and the limited load out to draw from, the question is do you wish to waste your finite resource on an unproductive outcome?

I personally find the IAF acquisition process rather confusing to the extend being dysfunctional. There are several stories on the ECM suite that is mated to the SU-30 MKI. According to this version, the SU-30 MKI can employ a locally developed RWR system known as Tarang and the SPJ pod is Israeli based.

View attachment 61952

The SU-30 MKI's radar NO11M Bars can track 15 and engage 4 targets simultaneously . I estimate its radar can probably detect the J-11 from as far as 240 kms but will need to close the distance to engage. BTW, according to Indian news report in 2019, India ordered $700 million worth of more advanced Russian missiles including RVV-MD and RVV-SD. Separately, the locally developed Astra has been
test fired from the SU-30 MKI. This missile has a range of 110 kms and has a Ku-band active seeker.
View attachment 61953

Additionally, the ASRAAM is being prepared for service with the SU-30 MKI.

View attachment 61954

Finally, if I am correct most Chinese planes including the J-11's MAWS are still UV based. That will be a problem when pitted against modern AAM.

When I say missile load, I'm primarily referring to the quality of missiles, not the actual number of missiles loaded.

As for the actual missile quality, the fact that the PL-15 is very long ranged for its class (200+ km) and uses a dual pulse motor suggests its effective range vs a Su-30MKI could be quite high. The R-77, in contrast, has a 80-100 km range, implying its effective range is almost that of a PL-10 ASR missile on effective range (20 km).

If we simply treat the PL-15 as a traditional solid-fuel rocket, as opposed to a dual-pulse rocket that can manage its fuel loads, the PL-15 would have a standard effective range (33% of aerodynamic range) of 67 km. If you treat a dual-pulse rocket as the standard modifier squared, you could expect an effective range of 88 km.

The question then becomes how effective the PL-15's seeker is vs the ECM suite on the Su-30MKI, as well as how reliable it is in general.

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The biggest problem, when it comes to J-11 and PL-15, is the data-link guidance. With modern BVRAAAMs, a huge problem is that the seeker is only useful on a terminal trajectory; the seeker aperture is often too small to get a good lock onto the target from long-range. AESA can offer a 3x improvement on range.

If, say, we assume that the diameter of a 203mm (PL-15) missile is a factor of 0.16 compared to a full scale 1000mm AESA as on the J-16 or J-20, that implies the range is also multiplied by a factor of 0.16. Then you have roughly 225 km vs 1m^2 converted to 36 km vs 1m^2. The Su-30MKI is supposed to be between 4 and 25 m^2, or a tracking range of 41 km.

This would be beyond the effective range of a R-77, but you'd still need to reverse direction and scoot, which'd take time. With a newer platform like the J-20, you could assume there's datalink capability such that the planes behind the front line could take control of the datalink guidance, but on a older platform such as the J-11, that's not really possible.
 

Inst

Captain
Also, looking things up, this is VERY interesting. Looking at Indian plans for their Astra missile, we get details that are quite useful. For instance, Astra is supposed to have a 25 km terminal guidance range on its seeker, which seems to be pulse doppler active. This implies the PL-15, due to its use of AESA, can reach 50-75 km terminal guidance range.

Second, claims on the Astra's future SFDR ramjet suggest that the Meteor's actual maximum range is 340 km.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
Thanks for your concern Lol.
Goodnight

Well, on a funny note, out of all the neighbors, China has had the most peaceful relations with India and Japan over all of history.
China has more wars with Myanmar than Japan. China has about 50% more wars with the Vietnamese than Koreans. She has about the same number wars with Koreans than Mongols/Mongolians (because the mongols are a relatively young nation, compare to the likes of Turkics and many other Tungusic people).
The most war China had during history is actually with old nomadic people like the Turkic, and Tungusic people.
 
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