Ladakh Flash Point

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Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
Rustom is pulling numbers and "facts" out of his ass here.
It took you until 2020 to understand that? That's an exclusive feature of arguments with endian. They are going to give you "facts" out of air & websites they made & they will expect you to "counter" that with "facts". Inevitably it means their paragraph of "facts" is going to be an essay bigger compared to real facts, because real facts can only be some precise words,points.

So how do you counter them? Simple, Bangla style is in your rescue.
If they claim from utopia, we claim from zootopia. If they claim 1, we claim 5. If they claim from mahabharat, we claim from Mars. The rest is history. That's why all the shit talking,memes endians do with others, they stay away from us, specially after those world cup & asian cup cricket matches which resulted into gigantic shit show in internet, endians came to realize they have met their internet boss :p
Once you get into their head, it's easy to irritate them ;)
You can't counter shits with facts. Keep the facts for sane people who listens & understands those. The answer of fire is triple fire.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Sir, china has burnt its finger in Galwan, so much so that not squeak from CCP mouth piece media about causalities. Your X PLA solider in US media is claiming 100 + casualties which is simply shameful if it has not been acknowledged . For CCP PLA soldiers life is worthless, but propaganda victory is important. About getting vietnamized , they literally raped your PLA with heavy casualties and POW and it will be far worse with facing india. PLA cannot handle high casualties like IA and you can guess the reason why i say this.
Jai Hind!!!
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
It took you until 2020 to understand that? That's an exclusive feature of arguments with endian. They are going to give you "facts" out of air & websites they made & they will expect you to "counter" that with "facts". Inevitably it means their paragraph of "facts" is going to be an essay bigger compared to real facts, because real facts can only be some precise words,points.

So how do you counter them? Simple, Bangla style is in your rescue.
If they claim from utopia, we claim from zootopia. If they claim 1, we claim 5. If they claim from mahabharat, we claim from Mars. The rest is history. That's why all the shit talking,memes endians do with others, they stay away from us, specially after those world cup & asian cup cricket matches which resulted into gigantic shit show in internet, endians came to realize they have met their internet boss :p
Once you get into their head, it's easy to irritate them ;)
You can't counter shits with facts. Keep the facts for sane people who listens & understands those. The answer of fire is triple fire.
Honestly I think it is a psychological reaction for @Rustom to act out. I would too be extremely unhappy and lash out at others if my country lost at least 20 soldiers killed and a further 60+ captured, which is tantamount to a humiliating defeat. Insecurity has always been part of human nature and Rustom is not alone.
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
Ok folks, peoples here are wayyyy to serious. It's time to press the time out button & time for some entertainment.
Its time to celebrate the heavenly marriage, as claimed by PM Netanyahu, in between Hubby Israel & Wifey India
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Let's dance together people, dinga dinga dee....security protection...dinga dinga...
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It took you until 2020 to understand that? That's an exclusive feature of arguments with endian. They are going to give you "facts" out of air & websites they made & they will expect you to "counter" that with "facts". Inevitably it means their paragraph of "facts" is going to be an essay bigger compared to real facts, because real facts can only be some precise words,points.

So how do you counter them? Simple, Bangla style is in your rescue.
If they claim from utopia, we claim from zootopia. If they claim 1, we claim 5. If they claim from mahabharat, we claim from Mars. The rest is history. That's why all the shit talking,memes endians do with others, they stay away from us, specially after those world cup & asian cup cricket matches which resulted into gigantic shit show in internet, endians came to realize they have met their internet boss :p
Once you get into their head, it's easy to irritate them ;)
You can't counter shits with facts. Keep the facts for sane people who listens & understands those. The answer of fire is triple fire.

Chinese people are far too ill equipped to play with Indian trashtalking. Overseas Chinese who have become westernised in some ways are able to because this sort of trashtalking is quite endemic in western culture too. Where do you think the Indians get it from? Except the Indians have nothing better to do while most westerners will probably give it a rest soon after it begins. It's the same reason why we rarely see Chinese counter western propaganda against it. My guess is they're too busy working on things and making/minding money to care. Most of them are protected from the toxic mess that is outside the great firewall. If it weren't for the CCP holding back Chinese nationalism, they'd probably get as fired up and toxic as the Indians already are. That won't be pretty at all for anyone. I know some Chinese chauvinists and they aren't exactly an enlightened and open minded crowd either.

Honestly I think it is a psychological reaction for @Rustom to act out. I would too be extremely unhappy and lash out at others if my country lost at least 20 soldiers killed and a further 60+ captured, which is tantamount to a humiliating defeat. Insecurity has always been part of human nature and Rustom is not alone.

Not really. Russians suffered far more deaths at the hands of the US in Syria and they've been respectful and held their heads high because it doesn't mean all that much. The Americans have had their special forces captured and tortured/killed in Venezuela recently for their attempted invasion. We don't see the Americans bitching and moaning as loud as Indians. These are all recent, post social media events. South Korean building bombed by the North Koreans a few weeks ago as well. Don't hear any SKians being extremely unhappy and lashing out at others.

Some people and cultures just know how to behave and act because they don't suffer from the insecurities and inferiority complex bhakt losers do. Because the Russians, Americans, and Koreans aren't actually losers and don't care that much for such trivial things. You don't see any of them burning opposition flags, banning apps, and having a major whinge fest like the Indians are doing. If they act, they make serious moves not joke around with daily doses of fake news aimed at soothing broken egos and protecting their clown in chief Modi.
 

Inst

Captain
Why are we really discussing this? It's a waste of time.

Indian Nationalist Perspective: China was beaten black and blue at Galwan, despite having the element of surprise and actual weapons.

Indian Moderate Perspective: China hit us pretty hard, and the Chinese probably took casualties, but not necessarily as severe as the ones as we took.

Chinese Moderate Perspective: This is a freaking waste of time. Get better cross channel communication and work to resolve the border dispute.

Chinese Nationalist Perspective: We beat the Indians black and blue! No casualties! PLA is great!

I mean, from this perspective you have four different perspectives on what happened at Galwan. Intellectually speaking, the Indians came out with rumors about what happened at Galwan, their media repeated it, and some Indians choose to believe in their account. Others are more circumspect, and resemble Chinese moderates in that they want this whole damn Ladakh thing to go away. And, likewise, you have Chinese nationalists who are proud of what happened at Galwan and choose to use it to inflate the PLA's capabilities.

Between these four perspectives, the entire situation seems to have devolved into a he-said she-said story, and people choose what they choose to believe.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I mean from the first part of your argument, the Indian armed forces is superior to the Chinese armed forces because they have more men under arms than China does.

When have I ever said the Indian Armed Forces are superior to the Chinese Armed Forces?
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
What is the point of your long discourse below?

None of the scenarios make any sense.
The Russian military can only pose a short term threat to the EU.
In the medium-long term, an EU countries would mobilise to build a military to overpower Russia.
That is irrespective of the existence of NATO.

As for the EU, the absorption of Eastern Europe was a geopolitical act, which required the EU to SUBSIDISE the development of Eastern Europe. It wasn't to prop up the EU economy.

Whilst some in the EU may look favourably on Russia joining the EU, it won't happen.
Germany and France will resent Russian influence in the EU.
Russia only has 140million people. There are over 3x as many people in the existing EU countries, and most of them will disagree with Russian policies, and will vote accordingly.

Again, Russia joining the EU requires Russia to dismantle the entrenched government-state complex, amongst so many other changes.
It's not going to happen.

Remember the EU has a larger population that the USA and roughly the same GDP.
Russia is not required if the EU wants to be a global superpower.

If the EU wants to be a global superpower, it just has to find the internal unity and desire to become one.
But the surveys show that the people of Europe don't want a federal European superstate, which is a requirement to become a global superpower.
And in any case, adding Russia to the EU will only weaken the internal unity and consensus of the European Union.

You really need to re-evaluate your analysis of Russia-EU relations and also the strategic balance with reference to China-India in Kashmir.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I mean from the first part of your argument, the Indian armed forces is superior to the Chinese armed forces because they have more men under arms than China does.

As for modern equipment, the Germans run roughly 244 LeoA2s. The French have roughly 200 Leclercs. The Russian Army ,in contrast, has roughly 3000 tanks in active service, ranging from T-72s to T-90s.

The Russian Army, also, has about 2000 SPGs in 152mm caliber. The French and German combined have only roughly 400 SPGs. Likewise, when we get to airpower, there's a massive force disparity between the RuAF and various EU states.

The key to EU defense, anyways, isn't the EU member states themselves, but rather NATO. The present force parity and deterrence is guaranteed by the fact that the EU is backed by the United States, which has taken it on as one of their defense obligations. But if you take out the United States, the obvious force replacement is Russia, if the Europeans can get an agreeable modus vivendi.

===

Like I told Brumby, I tend to have a longer perspective than many people, even if I don't blame it on being ethnic Chinese. There are two other key factors, one that I need to further elucidate.

First, the EU has been propping itself up mainly by absorbing former Soviet-bloc states. What they get out of former Soviet-bloc states is that they get a supply of cheap labor and potential for economic growth. But all of these former Soviet states are by themselves, small, and with limited population power. Russia, on the other hand, is large, and would basically be the final step in the EU development project.

Second, you have to remember, that China is a unitary state. You can cajole Fujian vs Anhui or Heilongjiang vs Henan for business purposes, but if it all of a sudden becomes a strategic affair, the CPC central government will crack down hard on you. The European Union, on the other hand, is an alliance of sovereign nations. Moreover, these sovereign nations tend to have limited populations. The most populous nation in the EU is Germany, with 83 million people, and people are already complaining about the EU essentially being German-dominated; or alternately, that the EU is dominated by Germany as an economic power and France as a military power. If you stuff Russia into the EU, though, what's the chances that Russia would end up dominating the EU given a population almost twice as big as Germany's?

That's to say, for Russia, if it were to join the EU, wouldn't be joining as a satellite, but as potentially the first among equals. This is a powerful reason for the EU to deny Russia entrance to it, but a powerful incentive for Russia to join the EU.

===

In truth, I admit that there are many important problems that need to be overcome before Russia joins the European Union. That's why I say it's a long-term event, not a short-term one that can be expected in the next decade or so. But the strategic complementation of Russia and EU is far too great for it not to be an event that should be considered; Russia in the EU would more than double the physical landmass of the European Union, turning the EU from a geopolitical has-been and American satellite into a true pole, one that can successfully compete with the ABCA alliance, the Sinosphere, and the Indosphere.
 

zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Below was posted on mitbbs claiming to be based on an internal Chinese report on how the Ladakh situation developed over May and June as well as the current status.

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发信人: newmj (newmj), 信区: Military
标 题: 【内部通报】:中印双方脱离接触,结束对峙的情况通报
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Jul 7 01:43:17 2020, 美东)

1. 5月4日至5月25日之间,印度军队首先进入位于中印双方实控线拉达克地区的中间地
带,向前推进2公里,修建一条沿中间地带走向的简易巡逻公路。双方实控线的中间地
带是双方在1975年协议规定的,宽约25公里。过去中印双方都曾进入该中间地带巡逻。
由于地形地貌原因和1962年中印双方军事冲突形成的态势,中方军队的据点营房位于该
中间地带一侧边缘,并声明整个拉达克地区属于中国领土。印度方面由于前往该中间地
带没有公路,交通不便,其最近据点距离上述中间地带较远,但声称中方在1962年侵占
了印度的上述领土。(注:由此可以看出,当时在划定中间地带时,中间地带靠近中方
一侧,而距离印度实际控制线较远。这是我本人的评论,不属于文件要点。)


2. 中方边防部队分别于5月5日和5月10日,派出联络人员前往印军修路工地,表示反对
印军单方面改变现状。印军驱逐并殴打前往联络的人员,砸毁联络人员乘坐的车辆,致
使中方一名联络人员重伤。5月10日,中方边防部队立即向中间地带前进移动10至12公
里,进驻上述中间地带10至12公里处的四指至八指地区,全面控制八指至十六指地区。
阻止印军向中间地带延伸修建公路。


3. 中方进驻上述该地区后,为保障后勤供给,快速修建了通往该地区的公路,5月14日
,印军派出一支19人的巡逻队前往中方修建公路的现场进行阻挠,发现中方修建的公路
已经建成,为此双方发生肢体冲突,结果印方有5人受伤,12人被俘,被俘人员携带武
器被缴获。


4. 5月15日,中印双方边防部队举行军长级别会晤,达成脱离接触,各自向后撤退,结
束双方冲突的协议。为表示诚意,中方在会晤后释放了印军12名被俘人员,全部发还印
方被俘人员的武器。5月30日印方侦察到中方在加勒万河谷一处施工现场停止了施工,
一些大型施工设备正在向后转移后,突然翻悔,认为印方虽然修路在先,但公路并未建
成,而中方公路在几天时间内已经建成并已实际发挥了极大的效用,即便中方撤退后,
还可以随时利用已建好的公路重新快速回到上述地区,并还有可能利用现有的大型施工
机械设备修建新的公路,因此拒绝向后撤退,并声称中国侵占了印度领土,中方应全面
撤出该地区。


5. 6月15日,由于印军侦查失误,错误地认为中方已全部撤出了加勒万河谷地区的据点
和施工现场,遂由一名上校(联队指挥官巴布上校)和两名中校带领一个连,约160余
人,步行三小时十公里,前往加勒万河谷的施工现场观察并准备占领该据点和施工现场



6. 由巴布上校带领的连队到达加勒万河谷的中方营地后,发现中方营地只剩少数施工
人员,并无部队,就派士兵前往驱逐中方人员,并让士兵拆除和烧毁中方帐篷。中方施
工人员是留下来看受未及撤走的施工设备的,准备第二天全部撤走,结果有四人被打成
重伤。


7. 奉命后撤了大约两公里的中方边防部队接到印军进入中方营地,打伤中方施工人员
,拆除并放火烧毁中方营地的报告后,立即赶到中方营地营救被印军打伤的人员。在中
方施工人员被全部营救出后,中印双方部队发生大规模肢体冲突。冲突持续了七个小时
。印军当场有三人受重伤,后在撤离现场途中死亡,其中包括指挥官巴布上校;十七人
于第二天被发现在河谷中死亡;四十七人受重伤,其中十二人伤势严重危及生命;七十
四人受轻伤;二十四人被俘,其中包括两名中校和一名少校。(一名中校在第三天被释
放后曾接受印度媒体采访,较客观地叙述了事件的基本经过和被俘后的情况,但很快被
印度军方封锁消息并删除了受访内容。)中方先前一名联络人员在受重伤后,数日后牺
牲,四名施工人员受重伤,十二名士兵受轻伤。


8. 事件发生后,中方在坚持捍卫主权的原则下降调处理事件,不采取激起国内民族情
绪的做法,及时向各有关国家通报事件发生的事实经过,得到了周边各有关国家和国际
舆论的理解和好评。而印度方面,民众在其国内媒体和一些政治人物的刺激下,反华情
绪激烈,战争呼声不断。国际舆论普遍认为印度的综合国力及军队力量与中方相比差距
较大,中方不刺激地区紧张局势的做法是正确的。


9. 印度政府迫于国内民众情绪和舆论压力,不得不高调为死亡军人举行葬礼,又斥巨
资向有关国家大量采购军备,并派出大量军队前往冲突地区。由于前往冲突地区的交通
状况不良,各军后勤保障不力,部队装备落后,派往冲突地区的部队无法进入冲突区域
,只能停留在拉达克地区以外地区。同时印度政府也注意到由于近来印度经济状况恶劣
,国内疫情严重,自然灾害频发,与周边国家关系紧张,因此不希望与中方的紧张关系
进一步升级。在此形势下,印方愿意与中方进行政府和军方的高级会晤,促使双方在紧
张地区脱离接触,结束对峙。

10. 双方军队高级会晤于近日再次举行。双方同意各自的军队向后撤离,脱离接触。印
方表示愿意后撤,但提出由于地理和交通原因,冲突地区和后撤驻扎部队的地方中间是
无人区,印方一后撤就须撤到距离实控线中间地带较远的地方,因此要求中方军队撤回
到今年四月份以前中方军队所在地位置,完整保持原拉达克地区中间地带的原有状态,
中方对此表示拒绝。在两国外长会晤中,两国外长一致表示同意双方军队高层会晤达成
的协议,脱离接触,结束对峙。印度外长还向中方通报了印度总理前往冲突地区视察和
慰问的情况,希望中方理解。目前中印双方部队根据双方达成的协议,各自向后撤离两
公里。在发生伤亡冲突的加勒万河谷地区,中国边防部队从当天发生冲突的现场回到了
6月15日前奉命后撤两公里时所在的营地。印度后撤两公里的地区属于无人区,因此被
迫后撤了十公里,回到了5月15日以前驻扎的地点。
 
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