Ladakh Flash Point

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ougoah

Brigadier
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If China was cruel and truly wanted to capture this 20%, they could easily do what they did on Pangong Tso but it would seriously risk war... something I consider to be outside of China's wishes and intention.

Ask why China successfully captured and controlled disputed land while India could not do a thing about it. Then ask yourself if China truly wanted to capture it, why not just do so? They clearly can achieve it easily. China wants to take it without a war but it would most likely incite a war with India and India would be well within its rights to wage one (since the land is disputed and here it doesn't matter who has a "better" claim). So the situation for China is either it moves in like on Pangong but for the entire remaining 20% and push India to either accept the full dispute is China or to go kinetic. That's clearly something China doesn't want to do because there are many reasons for it to avoid wasting time, material, and energy fighting India. Even if it won the war, it would only win a stretch of barren land bringing it only 20km closer to New Delhi. It makes no difference to China but risks much.

For India, it makes little difference as well but risks only lives. It isn't in danger of invasion (China won't invade into India proper) or any external threat apart from Pakistan. India wants to gain control without a war either which explains their reluctance to shoot during the initial Pangong occupation. Indian military leaders know full well how quickly and violently they'd lose a shooting fight. If the difference in ammunition were revealed, it would be bigger than the difference between India's 13.5kg payload orbiter to Mars and China's 5000kg payload i.e. higher gap than what most would expect. That wouldn't even account for technology but alas China's forces are far away from from this region and that explains China's reluctance to push the situation beyond control and its reluctance to exacerbate the issue with a push on India to convert the 20% into a buffer.

Now China is waiting India. The initiative is on India. If India agrees to disengage and leave 20%, buffer gets made throughout. If India escalates, then it's war. If India stays put, it is clearly waiting for opportunity. This is why China's still been reinforcing this border with more equipment and troops but the numbers in this region are no match for what India could quickly put into play. Technology would create some resemblance of parity but it would be a grand distraction for China to pay material and human costs in a war with India. The causes for the stalemate are therefore very obvious.

China has been shown in the past, during escalation, and indeed after it (explained already) to want to avoid this situation flaring up. It has nothing to gain. It will only attract the wrong type of attention and negative press. Again it has NOTHING to truly gain. However, it cannot simply give this 20% to India just because India increased patrols in the past and informally creating a scenario where they become de facto owners of the land. Yes China would like the 20% as much as India but unlike India, China is very much happy to make this 20% an enforced no man's land - buffer.

Why is it so hard to understand why India is refusing to agree to China's terms on buffer because it means India loses access to the 80% which it still claims? That's the one and only true reason. And again so here's this stalemate. India refuses to get off the 20% because that means not only losing 20% but certainly the 80% behind this. China won't de-escalate and move back from certain parts if India doesn't vacate 20%. India waiting for opportunity, China waiting to react to however India moves.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It is far more accurate to say (for this current standoff) that India attempted to shift LAC forward to blue line - China's line of control. China reacted by moving PLA all the way one finger shy of India's LAC and China's claim (more or less by insignificant difference). China forced India to take a deal where it would only disengage PLA if India agrees to stop patrolling at Pangong and remain behind Finger 3. Because this matter became a little too embarrassing and high profile for Modi, he eventually agreed to those terms but it is just for Pangong. Indian troops are still well within this 20% and seem like they are staying. India refuses to convert entire stretch into a buffer because it means losing Aksai Chin claims and losing access to everything else it claims here.

India tried salami slicing methods China used in the past as well to shift blue line up to where it is now. China certainly has shifted LAC westward but in the past. India thought it had opportunity in 2020 when bullshit propaganda was making up numbers on covid deaths in China... while high, it seems the CPC had fairly accurate numbers that were commensurate with all mathematical modelling and outbreak patterns. India assumed it could take 20% when China was "distracted" and simply did not anticipate such a dramatic PLA response.

Now in its failure, it is trying to do the 99% success story for its masses. It's trying to claim that China was the one trying to shift LAC. Really?? the country with nothing to gain and much more to lose for pointlessly picking a fight with India when it is doing well and has a philosophy of avoiding war and developing with a low profile to not attract those with bad intentions... unless absolutely necessary and attacked? The country that is constantly slandered and smeared with unfair scrutiny wanted more and all for a stretch of barren land? When it has already won and controlled the 80% of the historic legacy dispute? The country that patrolled the 20% a dozen times less frequently than India and only really ever going out to meet the patrolling Indians?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let's not forget also the fact that China already demonstrated it could and is willing to put troops down and occupy disputed land. If China's aim was always to capture like brainless Jai Hinds think it is, then why move away? IT TOOK CONTROL OF THE LAND FOR 9 MONTHS :rolleyes: India did nothing because it could do nothing. So clearly China didn't intend for the outcome to be winning 20% this way.

China would expect India to fight if China took over disputed land. So why move away when India didn't even fight? If China went in for a fight and took over, why would it move back when the India already chickened out and wouldn't fire a single shot? India had 9 months to shoot but wouldn't. Clearly it is undeniably obvious to even the most retarded moron that China had no intention to "shift LAC westward" because it proved it could do that and not just that it was confident in fighting India and beating it, it also proved Modi and Indian military leaders were gutless losers who could only bitch and cry while playing propaganda once their moves were responded to.

Ask why Indians would only perform a few sneak attacks during that 9 months? Why wouldn't India shoot? If the story is China invading disputed land without provocation, why wouldn't India defend itself?? Clearly NOT the story. Clearly PLA capture up to finger 4 was NOT unprovoked. Clearly India got caught doing something and wouldn't go down the righteous path of either making everything clear and transparent or go to war in defence of its land. It didn't because it wasn't going to show it was salami slicing and it wasn't defending its land or claims. PLA's one step forward to secure the disengagement only worked for Pangong. At the moment, China looks like it is confident India won't be pushing further or building inside 20%. I suspect that is a red line for China if India built permanent structures within it. And yes this is hypocritical of China since it now has a road to F5. India is going to stay until it finds opportunity to do something or it becomes closer to collapsing and cannot afford to maintain positions and risk more confrontation.
 
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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
LAC before 2020
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LAC After 2020
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no UNBIASED, clear evidence has been presented otherwise, just politically influenced heresay. Not a single historical map showing an LAC different than the one shown in literally every available document and used by the US Office of the Geographer has been presented by any member, so the line shown on google stands.

Chinese historic claim

View attachment 72458


Current positions were posted before.

In Depsang, Gen. Rakesh Sharma who actually served on Depsang, has made it clear that both sides are mutually blocking each other at the bottleneck and that China is being denied large amounts of land that falls within its perception of claims that it used to patrol before 2020. In Gogra, both sides have about 1 platoon in the disputed area, China's perception of claims is up to the kugrang river well behind Indian deployments. In Hot Springs, PLA already withdrew, as shown by the India today article previously posted about "recalibrations."

And by now, it should be clear that the patrol points are called patrol points for a reason, because most of them are simply points that mark areas where IA/ITBP patrol, and not locations of camps. Before 2020, India did not even have a single camps in Galwan, just a base camp across the Shyok. Now india dominates the valley.
Not unbiased. Or Clear.
Stop the shitposting, Jai Hind.

Galwan

We have gone over that map nigh times. It's is for the events before 1962. It is also not to scale.
Further -
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Also
ca1deafc0ff8c7bf3ecaee2e49d67f99db1f3245.jpg

Depsang

For Depsang, China's current claim limit and India's LAC are two distinct things. China has expanded its Depsang area and has seized and consolidated 80% of the land ( till Burtse)
Screenshot_20210524-052135.jpg
So indeed it's mutually blocking. But I'd say India losing land since 2013. With China gaining lot more land.

It takes special talent to twist this new reality as being "China denied land (forget huge piece).

More like India losing huge piece. China has only gained.


Hot Springs

Kugrang river relates to Hot Springs. Not Gogra specifically (if you are being faithful with the discussion over the past few months in this thread.)

In Hot Springs, China has camps 1 km + into Indian LAC. But heavy snowfall has resulted in long term deployment untenable. The article you cited itself says that. It also notes that China has built up significantly behind the Indian LAC though. The India Today article specifies these things. It also notes that no change has happened to other regions.


But that's not the important point.
The important question are to which location exactly is the map pointing at?

The maps in India Today does not point to the changlung - kugrang River confluence. Both the maps used (1 gif and 1 map which I cited below) also have winding roads nearby ( a feature near Chinese posts above the LAC).

All these point to the reality that these maps are for the Chinese posts within what is beyond India's LAC. There is a Hot Springs there.

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twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not unbiased. Or Clear.
Stop the shitposting, Jai Hind.

Galwan

We have gone over that map nigh times. It's is for the events before 1962. It is also not to scale.
Further -
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Also
View attachment 72459

Depsang

For Depsang, China's current claim limit and India's LAC are two distinct things. China has expanded its Depsang area and has seized and consolidated 80% of the land ( till Burtse)
View attachment 72460
So indeed it's mutually blocking. But I'd say India losing land since 2013. With China gaining lot more land.

It takes special talent to twist this new reality as being "China denied land (forget huge piece).

More like India losing huge piece. China has only gained.


Hot Springs

Kugrang river relates to Hot Springs. Not Gogra specifically (if you are being faithful with the discussion over the past few months in this thread.)

In Hot Springs, China has camps 1 km + into Indian LAC. But heavy snowfall has resulted in long term deployment untenable. The article you cited itself says that. It also notes that China has built up significantly behind the Indian LAC though. The India Today article specifies these things. It also notes that no change has happened to other regions.


But that's not the important point. The important question are to which location exactly is the map pointing at?

The maps in India Today does not point to the changlung - kugrang River confluence. Both the maps used (1 gif and 1 map which I cited below) also have winding roads nearby ( a feature near Chinese posts above the LAC).

All these point to the reality that these maps are for the Chinese posts within what is beyond India's LAC. There is a Hot Springs there.

View attachment 72463
View attachment 72464
What is marked as Gogra on Google is actually Hot Springs. Which makes sense, since, the Hot Springs Police memorial is right next to it. Points 17 and 17a are around the kugrang Changlung convergence, pp17a is around where Indi'as forward camp is(India Today actually messed up and showed it as a PLA camp).

PP15 is around here
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As you can see PLA did have some pretty big incursions there, with earthworks are still visible, but they were withdrawn.

PP16 is here
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As for Depsang, Lt. Gen. Sharma specifically states that previously, both sides would patrol a large area of land even beyond the differing perceptions. PLA would regularly patrol up to Burtse and Track Junction (near DBO) while India would patrol up to the pps which are obviously well East of the Chinese claims. In 2013, PLA camped within a stone's throw from Burtse camp.

This is what Lt. Gen. Sharma himself said in his article posted here a while back.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
What is marked as Gogra on Google is actually Hot Springs. Which makes sense, since, the Hot Springs Police memorial is right next to it. Points 17 and 17a are around the kugrang Changlung convergence, pp17a is around where Indi'as forward camp is(India Today actually messed up and showed it as a PLA camp).

PP15 is around here
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

As you can see PLA did have some pretty big incursions there, with earthworks are still visible, but they were withdrawn.

PP16 is here
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

As for Depsang, Lt. Gen. Sharma specifically states that previously, both sides would patrol a large area of land even beyond the differing perceptions. PLA would regularly patrol up to Burtse and Track Junction (near DBO) while India would patrol up to the pps which are obviously well East of the Chinese claims. In 2013, PLA camped within a stone's throw from Burtse camp.

This is what Lt. Gen. Sharma himself said in his article posted here a while back.


Google Marks Gogra. When you search for Gogra in Google, it sets the coordinates to a point some distance away from the Gogra Post.
That is east of PP17 A. But Hot springs is not marked.

What you are saying is that Hot Springs have all along been Gogra ( which is not and is a false information).

There has been an error on my part in assigning PP15, PP16 etc. In fact often, I placed PP15 in the confluence region of Changlung-Kugrang. I was of the impression that confrontation above the PP17A Gogra Post was limited to one place.
-Hot springs confrontation was signified all along as the Camps India and China had close proximity. There was much back and forth in this thread on that basis too. Having clear PP15/16 seemed unnecessary in that case.

But what you seem to be posing is that China had posts further above confluence of kugrang-changlung. Which means there are more regions of confrontation ( other than the 4) between the Galwan and Chang Chenmo.



No, one is arguing with Sharma. I don't understand why you bring up him. His statements only lend credence to the " China occupies Indian land after 2013" claim. I think it's pretty clear. I've already explained how China, if completely taking up the Burtse would've satisfied its claims and make any maneuvering further, difficult.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
I am surprise that u guys still try to talk sense to senseless people.

After Indian minister blatantly lied about a new covid strain coming from Singapore, I lost all trust on every single Indians.

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They are just a bunch of irresponsible, uncultured, sorry state of mankind who know no gratitude.

Sorry... Just my rant. Please delete if inappropriate.
 
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