Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396494385487904768

The Hindu is not a reliable source. They were the ones who spread the debunked 1000 km report.

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"Debunked" by the believe-these-Indians-not-those-Indians argument based on what these Indians want to hear.

twineedle said:

Gen. Naravane likely visited the new IA base camp at the foot of the valley, and probably some of the smaller forward camps that were newly constructed near India's perception of the LAC. Further proof that China's attempts to shift the LAC westwards in Galwan failed, and the LAC as well as India's perception in Galwan is where it has been for decades.

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Not only does this claim not have a source, the conclusion is illogical even if the claim were to be assumed true. It's just India's COVID-induced fantasy that a conflict it initiated and was defeated in, could somehow be interpreted as successful Indian defense and that it could foil a fundamentally superior power like China, which it needs medical supplies from when it gets sick from its own incompetence. And before COVID, the delirium was induced most likely by consumption of bovine solid and liquid excrement.

twineedle said:

Gen. Naravane likely visited the new IA base camp at the foot of the valley, and probably some of the smaller forward camps that were newly constructed near India's perception of the LAC. Further proof that China's attempts to shift the LAC westwards in Galwan failed, and the LAC as well as India's perception in Galwan is where it has been for decades.

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Weasel!

I didn't notice this garbage you sneakily put in!

Where's the proof Jai Hind? The current LAC is at the Y junction. There has been no change in the conditions there and posts of both countries exists equal distance from the bend. The LAC being at Y junction itself is plenty proof that China pushed India back by a km ( as per rtd Patrol commander).

First prove the India's posts are closer to the Y junction than China's. But that's not enough.
Prove India has a post beyond Y. Then only can you claim China failed.

Both are not a reality. China has managed to push back India/ moved beyond LAC of India in Depsang, Galwan and Hot Springs. The Indian temper tantrum around Gogra means that that region also faces a similar predicament.

According to that article from the Hindu

"There was a minor face-off between Indian and Chinese troops in the no-patrolling zone at Galwan Valley in Eastern Ladakh in the first week of May, a senior government official told The Hindu. However, no clash occurred and the two sides disengaged quickly."

But then the retraction:

"The Army, however, said no such “minor face-off” took place. “The article seems to be inspired by sources who may be trying to derail the ongoing process for early resolution of issues in eastern Ladakh,” it said in a statement."

So is the Hindu wrong about it being from senior government official? Or are there senior government officials trying to derail the peace process. Indians really need to sort their chain of command out.

But yeah, I doubt anything major happened.

LAC before 2020

LAC After 2020

no UNBIASED, clear evidence has been presented otherwise, just politically influenced heresay. Not a single historical map showing an LAC different than the one shown in literally every available document and used by the US Office of the Geographer has been presented by any member, so the line shown on google stands.

Chinese historic claim



Current positions were posted before.

In Depsang, Gen. Rakesh Sharma who actually served on Depsang, has made it clear that both sides are mutually blocking each other at the bottleneck and that China is being denied large amounts of land that falls within its perception of claims that it used to patrol before 2020. In Gogra, both sides have about 1 platoon in the disputed area, China's perception of claims is up to the kugrang river well behind Indian deployments. In Hot Springs, PLA already withdrew, as shown by the India today article previously posted about "recalibrations."

And by now, it should be clear that the patrol points are called patrol points for a reason, because most of them are simply points that mark areas where IA/ITBP patrol, and not locations of camps. Before 2020, India did not even have a single camps in Galwan, just a base camp across the Shyok. Now india dominates the valley.

twineedle said:

LAC before 2020

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LAC After 2020

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These 2 links are the same thing and show nothing at all.

twineedle said:

no UNBIASED, clear evidence has been presented otherwise, just politically influenced heresay.

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Well, that's the thing with Indian media, there is nothing unbiased or clear.

twineedle said:

Not a single historical map showing an LAC different than the one shown in literally every available document and used by the US Office of the Geographer has been presented by any member, so the line shown on google stands.

Chinese historic claim
View attachment 72458


Current positions were posted before.

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Doesn't connect with anything else you posted.

twineedle said:

In Depsang, Gen. Rakesh Sharma who actually served on Depsang, has made it clear that both sides are mutually blocking each other at the bottleneck and that China is being denied large amounts of land that falls within its perception of claims that it used to patrol before 2020.

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Yeah, he'd claim that, cus if not, then him and his men are just there wasting everybody's time, right? But we all know that Indians don't have the combat capability to block China's military.

twineedle said:

In Gogra, both sides have about 1 platoon in the disputed area, China's perception of claims is up to the kugrang river well behind Indian deployments. In Hot Springs, PLA already withdrew, as shown by the India today article previously posted about "recalibrations."

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Oh, the India today article! Is that one of those Indian sources you want use to trust over those Indian sources you don't want us to trust because it says what you want to be true?

twineedle said:

And by now, it should be clear that the patrol points are called patrol points for a reason, because most of them are simply points that mark areas where IA/ITBP patrol, and not locations of camps. Before 2020, India did not even have a single camps in Galwan, just a base camp across the Shyok. Now india dominates the valley.

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Dominates? LOLOL What an fantastical word to use for a country that can get nothing done. You know that dominating something requires more than just being there and running away when something else comes like Indians did in the ambush that started this, right? There might be roaches in my kitchen, but they don't dominate anything because they scurry away when people come, except they don't get killed scurrying into icy waters.

twineedle said:

Since Galwan is in the news again, here is a pretty nice picture of the valley from when COAS visited it a short while ago. I think this is the first publicly available photo of the Galwan Valley as seen from across the Shyok. @siegecrossbow


Gen. Naravane likely visited the new IA base camp at the foot of the valley, and probably some of the smaller forward camps that were newly constructed near India's perception of the LAC. Further proof that China's attempts to shift the LAC westwards in Galwan failed, and the LAC as well as India's perception in Galwan is where it has been for decades.

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China NEVER tried to shift the LAC westward. You can't make up your own goals which were never the adversary's intention and then claim victory.

This is like saying "look at the Indian flag in New Delhi. China obviously failed to shift border to New Delhi like they attempted to in 1962". Bold lies my friend.

China kicked out Indian patrol at the Pangong section of the remaining 20% of dispute between blue line and LAC. China never encroached onto India's ideal LAC but India tried to increase its presence within the 20%. Indian were removed by PLA settling in up to finger 4 for about 9 months.

After Indians failed to remove PLA in return, they negotiated for the 9 months and because the matter was getting to humiliating for Modi, he finally settled for China's deal - PLA disengages from 20% dispute IFF India remains on India's side of LAC - pink dotted line.

Outside of Pangong which was the most high profile standoff, India refuses to leave and create a buffer.

China's only move to "shift the LAC" is by kicking Indians out of 20%. In Pangong it was the main area of contention and PLA remains in Galwan and possibly hot springs, gogra and Demchok.

Abominable said:

According to that article from the Hindu

"There was a minor face-off between Indian and Chinese troops in the no-patrolling zone at Galwan Valley in Eastern Ladakh in the first week of May, a senior government official told The Hindu. However, no clash occurred and the two sides disengaged quickly."

But then the retraction:

"The Army, however, said no such “minor face-off” took place. “The article seems to be inspired by sources who may be trying to derail the ongoing process for early resolution of issues in eastern Ladakh,” it said in a statement."

So is the Hindu wrong about it being from senior government official? Or are there senior government officials trying to derail the peace process. Indians really need to sort their chain of command out.

But yeah, I doubt anything major happened.

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Every indian media agency has their own "anonymous senior gov. official" or simply "sources." The problem is all these sources say different things, and their accuracy is questionable.

India tried shifting LAC eastward!

Indians failed like usual and trying to claim the opposite where China is the one moving westward where even India's own general admits India conducted more patrols than China FARRRRR more like 15 times as often and he himself says that PLA rarely conducted patrols.

India tried taking 20% and hilariously failed and now the entire nation is in chaos for trying to move things while they thought China was suffering 100M deaths from covid a day. Made up own nonsense propaganda, believed, acted upon nonsense, got asses handed by nature and the almighty.

India tried and failed to take 20% because they already lost 80%.

They couldn't even manage to take the remaining 20% and now acting like a child and staying inside 20% and refusing to take a buffer deal because that would mean it forever loses access to the 80%.

China has no point in trying to capture the 20%... it also had little desire to stoke the flames with India the famously petty one. Don't forget this area up to India's proper border was administered under Tibet i.e. China (pre PRC) in the past. This is arguably more Chinese than it is Indian.

Why do I say China clearly didn't want to stoke flames in the past? Well they almost never conducted patrols in no man's land - 20%. Whereas India increased those patrols. So China built a road, India started building as well, both amassed more troops in case and then finally PLA had enough and simply took control up to Finger 4. India humiliated because it couldn't do a single thing in the 9 months except getting so many of their men captured and killed. China got 0 men captured and 3 men killed during that violence in June 2020 and this is actually counting violence from before like the gang of Indians beating and killing a single PLA officer who exited his vehicle to talk.

Who tried pushing eastward/westward??

Look at the facts. China almost never patrolled according to India's own four star general... India increased patrols according to India's own four star general.

China worried India wants to take the 20% because it feels China already has the 80% and so should be okay with that? lol nope.

India got its ass kicked. Again undeniable facts because China had PLA successfully control up to finger 4 until India agreed to China's terms of disengagement.

It was China's terms because India refuses to perform the same disengagement elsewhere because it is getting shafted in the deal. The deal specifies that India cannot step foot into the 20% anymore in exchange for PLA leaving. India refuses this deal for the rest of the 20% because it loses access not just to what it wants here but the 80% behind it which China already has controlled for 60 odd years.

Nevermind that all of this (100%) is Chinese land and India was not even a nation when China was administering this land with the border up to China's claim.