Ladakh Flash Point

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ougoah

Brigadier
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Exactly.

You might also have to consider the statements of Indian government as well as that US Admiral.

"China... forward positions... Seized...Intial conflict".

Ajai Shukla is one of the most pro-Indian people out there. I've noticed how he always takes an uncompromising view of things. Sometimes it is better to have a Jai-Hind than people like Ajai Shukla. Atleast the former would take in whatever they got and convert it into a win.

The latter just keeps pushing.

The Jai Hinds hate those like Shukla and Pravin and hunt for small instances where they are wrong rather than what they get right or evaluating them on their points, arguments and evidence. Because they often speak the uncomfortable truth but they are real patriots of India, at least Shukla surely is whereas Pravin is more pro-peace with Pakistan and pro-working with China so that's enough to call him a traitor and working for Pakistan lol.

Guys like Shukla are staunchly pro India but when they speak uncomfortable truths for India's "pride" and "glory", they are labeled as "anti-nationals" by the crowd that care only for PR wins and ego soothing half-truths.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
The Jai Hinds hate those like Shukla and Pravin and hunt for small instances where they are wrong rather than what they get right or evaluating them on their points, arguments and evidence. Because they often speak the uncomfortable truth but they are real patriots of India, at least Shukla surely is whereas Pravin is more pro-peace with Pakistan and pro-working with China so that's enough to call him a traitor and working for Pakistan lol.

Guys like Shukla are staunchly pro India but when they speak uncomfortable truths for India's "pride" and "glory", they are labeled as "anti-nationals" by the crowd that care only for PR wins and ego soothing half-truths.
I don't know much about Sawnhey, I don't watch him that often. But from the few I have watched I don't doubt his positions regarding India, China, US etc. I do doubt his knowledge about non-military subjects. His remarks about Artifical intelligence in Warfare is shallow. He doesn't explain how AI is utilized and how countries apply it. He says that, broadly, certain armies are experienced with AI and that India's force makeup isn't ready for it.

I have dismal hopes for India. Most countries have an inclination to emulate Nazi ideology but I've never seen a country as primed for it as India. China must keep the powders dry.

If there was no China threat, most nations of the world would've ostracized and attacked India for its right wing lean.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Jai Hinds hate those like Shukla and Pravin and hunt for small instances where they are wrong rather than what they get right or evaluating them on their points, arguments and evidence. Because they often speak the uncomfortable truth but they are real patriots of India, at least Shukla surely is whereas Pravin is more pro-peace with Pakistan and pro-working with China so that's enough to call him a traitor and working for Pakistan lol.

Guys like Shukla are staunchly pro India but when they speak uncomfortable truths for India's "pride" and "glory", they are labeled as "anti-nationals" by the crowd that care only for PR wins and ego soothing half-truths.
Ajai Shukla is not pro India, he is pro Congress. Just go back to 2013 when China first started building up heavily in Depsang, and he never said a word, even though by his logic, that was when india "lost" land in terms of patrols of claimed territory. In addition, he tries to contradict satellite imagery by using supposed claim lines that aren't even backed up by Indian and non Indian sources. There are several veterans, such as S/ dinny and Syed Hasnain, who are not fans of the Modi Gov. but still support the Indian narrative. Even Retired Gen. Gurmit Singh, who served during the last Congress Government, has said the Modi. Gov. handled this standoff better than the previous gov. If you want to truly get the whole truth, look at what Nitin Gokhale is saying. He actually visits Ladakh forward locations and speaks to people actually serving on the ground. Ironically, people like Shukla have called him a BJP mouthpiece for reporting on the current sit But that is beside the point.

And India never patrolled up exactly to the dotted line in most sectors, the patrol routes taken by indian soldiers typicalyy fall about 1 km short.

And india does not even claim, yet alone patrol up to the blue line. The exception was Depsang. In gogra and Hot Springs, it is China with the differeing perspectives, not India. China actually claims a significant amount of land on the Indian side of the dotted line, some of which India recently occupied during the standoff.

As for Demchok, That is one area mostly controlled by India that China claims in its entirlety. Making it more complicated is that the area is inhabited by around 5-6 hundred people or so. The issue is primarily related to grazing rights. There was previously an informal agreement to allow nomads by both sides to graze on disputed fields along the lac. However, beginning last year, PLA stopped nomads from grazing. Local residents also claimed PLA was using Chinese nomads to intrude on their land, leading to more confrontations between ITBP and PLA Here is a good videp from last year of an incident like that.
Keep in mind that this actually happened before 2020 on and off, and there have even been prolonged standoffs in 2014. So India does not consider this to be a part of the current standoff.

Also imporntant to consider that there are civillian villages right on both sides right across from each other. This is the Chinese village shown on Google maps.

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The Indian side is shown as a power plant, just across.

This is an older videos of the area, to give an idea of what it is like


A more recent image of tanks across the Indus near lac


Recently, India has also built a road conecting Demchok to Chushul
1615815061107.png
 
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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Ajai Shukla is not pro India, he is pro Congress. Just go back to 2013 when China first started building up heavily in Depsang, and he never said a word, even though by his logic, that was when india "lost" land in terms of patrols of claimed territory. In addition, he tries to contradict satellite imagery by using supposed claim lines that aren't even backed up by Indian and non Indian sources. There are several veterans, such as S/ dinny and Syed Hasnain, who are not fans of the Modi Gov. but still support the Indian narrative. Even Retired Gen. Gurmit Singh, who served during the last Congress Government, has said the Modi. Gov. handled this standoff better than the previous gov. If you want to truly get the whole truth, look at what Nitin Gokhale is saying. He actually visits Ladakh forward locations and speaks to people actually serving on the ground. Ironically, people like Shukla have called him a BJP mouthpiece for reporting on the current sit But that is beside the point.

And India never patrolled up exactly to the dotted line in most sectors, the patrol routes taken by indian soldiers typicalyy fall about 1 km short.

And india does not even claim, yet alone patrol up to the blue line. The exception was Depsang. In gogra and Hot Springs, it is China with the differeing perspectives, not India. China actually claims a significant amount of land on the Indian side of the dotted line, some of which India recently occupied during the standoff.

As for Demchok, That is one area mostly controlled by India that China claims in its entirlety. Making it more complicated is that the area is inhabited by around 5-6 hundred people or so. The issue is primarily related to grazing rights. There was previously an informal agreement to allow nomads by both sides to graze on disputed fields along the lac. However, beginning last year, PLA stopped nomads from grazing. Local residents also claimed PLA was using Chinese nomads to intrude on their land, leading to more confrontations between ITBP and PLA
Bold 1 :Which satellite imagery did he contradict?

You are being ambiguous and doesn't go directly to the point.

Bold 2: So these patrol points are mere claims of patrol? Whee is the LAC then?

Bold 2 :India claims entirety of Aksai Chin but it is China which has it.
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
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Bold 2: So these patrol points are mere claims of patrol? Whee is the LAC then?
1615815472897.png


The de facto lac is the red dotted line, though both sides have claims beyond it. China tried to enforce its claims and shift the red dotted line, but failed, despite lies by the likes of Ajai Shukla. Interestingly, some members are trying to turn a satellite image of a Chinese post 6 km from the lac into evidence of PLA intercepting Indian patrols, when India has the exact same posts it always has. The fact is the same lac since 1993 stands in Galwan, Gogra, Hot Springs, Depsang, Pangong, and others stand, despite China's attempts to push it west. Even in Galwan, the lac is still several hundred meters past the bend, as shown by theUS OFfice of the Geographer and google.

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
So now this Jai Hind has shifted the goalposts again - He says that LAC is not what is laid down by Ajai Shukla.

Could be true but then what explains India having issues with China in these places?

There's an answer for that too - India doesn't want China to build posts in what is China's own LAC.

Hopefully, the fellow member here gains some sense and make claims more clearly.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
So now this Jai Hind has shifted the goalposts again - He says that LAC is not what is laid down by Ajai Shukla.

Could be true but then what explains India having issues with China in these places?

There's an answer for that too - India doesn't want China to build posts in what is China's own LAC.

Hopefully, the fellow member here gains some sense and make claims more clearly.
I am posting a map that has already been posted here before. Don't know what this has to do with Ajai Shukla. Though maybe he could actually be wrong or even lying for political purposes, considering he is contradicted by historical Indian gov. documents.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
So now this Jai Hind has shifted the goalposts again - He says that LAC is not what is laid down by Ajai Shukla.

Could be true but then what explains India having issues with China in these places?

There's an answer for that too - India doesn't want China to build posts in what is China's own LAC.

Hopefully, the fellow member here gains some sense and make claims more clearly.
You are forgetting that back in May China had an issue with India building bridges in the Galwan Valley and near the mouth. THe Chinese embassy specifically used the term Galwan estuary.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
View attachment 69930


The de facto lac is the red dotted line, though both sides have claims beyond it l.

LAC = line of Actual Control.

Defacto LAC?
There is no Defacto LAC.

China reached many positions by the 1962 war where Indians surrendered. But soon after there were multiple agreements that made LAC delineation low in priority.

Simply speaking, Patrol points were used. LAC exited on paper and agreement but not on mutually recognized map.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
I am posting a map that has already been posted here before. Don't know what this has to do with Ajai Shukla. Though maybe he could actually be wrong or even lying for political purposes, considering he is contradicted by historical Indian gov. documents.
It has got nothing to do with Ajai Shukla.

Now Ajai Shukla is Anti-Modi party and lying?
So what about all the cherry picked sources you pointed out being cronies of Modi party and liars?

I have laid out how easy it is to prove Ajai Shukla and others wrong. You don't do that but beat around the bush and post things that are not closely related.
 
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