Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah said:

So a Chinese blog mentioned one of the PLA deaths who was part of the four and Indians want to pretend that makes a new number? Okay whatever makes your orange ass feel better I suppose.

Does that mean every time an Indian blog mentions any number of Indian deaths out of the 20+, that we should add that to India's total death count as well? In that case India's deaths measure in the thousands... well into the thousands.

As for land gain, well from before confrontation (and PLA occupation) to after - China gained the following;

• India stepping off F4 to F8 and no longer have access to anything beyond F3. China didn't occupy before confrontation and didn't patrol anywhere near as often as India if India's own four star general VK Singh is to be believed which I think he is... if he says India did 5+ times more patrols than China, we can only imagine the truth may have been 20+ or much, much more since he talks for India and 100 is still >5.
• Seems like China has not disengaged from Gogra, Hot Springs, Demchok - no one here knows exactly how much, probably only some smaller portions of the stretches between the blue and dotted pink-black lines on the general map. Certainly not all otherwise even Indian government and media can't hide that and probably won't want to.ve

Let's remember that Indian gov has LIED so many times on this ordeal. You ask where the lie is? How about Indian gov claiming that there was no confrontation and no land lost, then revealed (by others like Shukla and Panag and Pravin etc) that there was major confrontation and PLA occupied at least 1000 square meters of Indian claims and parts India used to patrol much more frequently than PLA. Land lost being about actual India land, well yeah duh there was no land lost because China hasn't invaded India as much as some Indians want to claim. This has always been and is still all about the remaining disputed land and holding more firmly onto Aksai Chin.

Another lie would be IA being ambushed by PLA. Well the secondary ambush probably did happen but after the initial Babu attack on a PLA camp. This is China's official declaration of events and Indian gov has not refuted or challenged officially. Didn't even provide a counter narrative, accepting China's version of events to be true. It's been months since China showed that Indian gov lied about Indian soldiers not being armed. They were armed and they were equipped with protection gear when PLA wasn't. The Indian had iron bars even when they ganged up on a PLA communication/ liaison officer who exited his vehicle for talks back in April to May timeframe.

When has China been even hinted at lying? China's version has not even been challenged officially except from random info fed to Indian masses that suggest certain things. China has only not filled in things like how the PLA overcome the IA during June fight in order to capture so many Indians and how 20+ Indians were killed/died (well here China simply says those Indians died from being abandoned by Indian military and died from exposure). China has not provided info there at all because it is much more sensitive stuff even after the conflict. China also hasn't talked about still militarily occupying parts of Demchok, Gogra, and Hot Springs.

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Xsizor said:

Bold 1: No, India shouldn't be concerned about what China does on its side.

Bold 2: Did Jai Hind media tell you that? India initiated the conflict by trying to patrol and intrude into Galwan.

Bold 3: So India initiated all the conflict and killings because it saw China merely having deployments in its own side of LAC?

Bold 4: Now you are trying to somehow twist what that Admiral and government has said. Can't you see? I can twist it in another direction and say that China has seized Indian territory.

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Xsizor said:

Didn't discredit. It's without substance. Where does your map show "eyeball to eyeball" confrontation? It doesn't.

Using the same logic that you once used (Regarding Galwan) I can speculate too. Did you forget?
You argued that in Galwan, since India had posts 500m away from LAC (the Y junction), India did patrols before winter.

I can use the same logic to say that China does patrols from the posts at or near PP19 to somewhere between PP17A and PP19. It is reinforced by the November, 2020 article I cited. It's not from Ajai skuksla blog. But a news article that cité him.

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Xsizor said:

In light of a depressed Jai Hind regurgitating his claims and speculation over and over again....

View attachment 69910
View attachment 69911

The rest of the ramblings are without substance or mere speculations.

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twineedle said:

Where exactly is that 1000 km? China already withdrew from that area as part of the disengagement. We can debate about patrols, but you mentioned occupation. In Depsang, the situation has been the same since 2013. And in Gogra Hot Springs, I already showed that PLA is not violating Indian claims.

And the Indian Government has actually been pretty accurate in its statements about the standoff lately. The Indian MOD statement simply mentions there are problems in Gogra Hot Springs and those areas have not been completely disengaged from. That is true, since PLA has not withdrawn to pre 2020 positions, even though it is on China's side of the LAC. That is a problem, acording to the Indian MOD. Adm. Davidson corroborated this, when he says China has not completely withdrawn. And BTw, Shukla has been contradicted by literally every other reputable source on the subject, both Indian and non Indian.

And what is India proper? If we go by the 1959 claim line, China claims hundreds of km beyond the dotted line you in that map, including many areas recently occupied by India. These areas fall outside the buffer zone.

Looks like the narrative has once again changed from India was the aggressor to the debunked 1000 km claim.

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twineedle said:

The second map you posted contradicts the Ajai SHukla claim, by showing the exact same lac as the one on Google. That lac definiely is not 1 km from the historic pp14(bend).

And satellite imagery has debunked Shukla's claims, by showing China does not have any camp at the location where Shukla claims it does. Will once again post images from after the initial July disengagement.


Also interesting how you tried to take neutral evidence and use it to support Ajai Shukla's speculation.

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twineedle said:

I thought I specified those confrontations happened before the partial disengagement in July. Now PLA is about 2 km from the lac(Indian claims), while Indian soldiers are about the same distance. However, forward deployments by both sides still exists, so that is considered a problem by the Indian MOD, hence the statement.

And following your logic, I can claim India regularly patrols past the lac as well. In fact, India likely already patrols in areas China claims, becasue it is China that has a different perception in that area.

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ougoah said:

China seems to be keeping the road they built between F5 and F8 and they also gained India's mirror disengagement on Pangong PLUS India's agreement to not patrol F4 to F8 and not access anything beyond F3 (unless they break agreement and fail to observe conditions to which PLA may respond). Let's see what another ruling party in India will do, particularly the one that's putting pressure on Modi to act.

Demchok, Gogra and Hot Springs are claimed by China and India and India is also within claimed stretch along those parts. Land grab? Ummm India's been doing land grabs of disputed stretches as well particularly in Depsang to Galwan Y junction and Demchok. Unless India agrees to disengagement conditions along those stretches, a similar disengagement procedure like at Pangong remains elusive to both sides.

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