The above post sums up the situation till now.
There is no point in bearing around what might have or had happened during the summer of 2020.
Ladakh Flash Point
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There is no point in bearing around what might have or had happened during the summer of 2020.
Slightly off topic but posting here for the benefit of some members.
This is from the Discuss thread of a military website I land occasionally.
I rest my case. I've never come across such specimens and that reinforces my Idea that China has a Nazi-Germany across the border. To have victory handed over to people who think like this will be tantamount to extinction.
The more I learn about their views, the more I wonder for the morality of a world which chooses to use this nation as sepoy (just like how Brits used them to attack China in Opium wars).
This is from the Discuss thread of a military website I land occasionally.
I rest my case. I've never come across such specimens and that reinforces my Idea that China has a Nazi-Germany across the border. To have victory handed over to people who think like this will be tantamount to extinction.
The more I learn about their views, the more I wonder for the morality of a world which chooses to use this nation as sepoy (just like how Brits used them to attack China in Opium wars).
I thought I specify that disengagment was no completed at gogra hot springs?(hence no buffer zone as of yet)
And I have posted multiple maps, including from historic indian sources, US government docs, and reputable Indian media. If you choose to discredit that, that is your choice.
And you have not provided any evidence except an Ajai SHukla blog to support your claims about LAC shifting.
And as to whether India should be concerned about what China does on its side, China strated the standoff based on objections to infrastructure construction by India. Obviously, both sides are concerned about what goes on in each other's territory. As far as india is concerned, China's forward deploymetns on its OWN side of the lac(undisputed by India) is a violation of status quo and problem. BOth the Indian MOD statement and statemtent by Adm. Davidson convey that.
Didn't discredit. It's without substance. Where does your map show "eyeball to eyeball" confrontation? It doesn't.
Using the same logic that you once used (Regarding Galwan) I can speculate too. Did you forget?
You argued that in Galwan, since India had posts 500m away from LAC (the Y junction), India did patrols before winter.
I can use the same logic to say that China does patrols from the posts at or near PP19 to somewhere between PP17A and PP19. It is reinforced by the November, 2020 article I cited. It's not from Ajai skuksla blog. But a news article that cité him.
And you provided evidence?
Your evidences are speculations.
The best way to disprove Ajai Skukla is by
1. Showing Satellite images (up to date, preferably cross checked) of India. Posts well into the Y - JUNCTION LAC or on it.
2. Showing satellite images (up to date) of Indian posts at PP19.
Its that simple.Any evidence isn't good evidence.
Bold 1: No, India shouldn't be concerned about what China does on its side.
Bold 2: Did Jai Hind media tell you that? India initiated the conflict by trying to patrol and intrude into Galwan.
Bold 3: So India initiated all the conflict and killings because it saw China merely having deployments in its own side of LAC?
Bold 4: Now you are trying to somehow twist what that Admiral and government has said. Can't you see? I can twist it in another direction and say that China has seized Indian territory.
And this should be the end of the debate. There's ZERO proof that china initiated the deployment. All of the evidences, be it press statement, earliest satellite photos, ALL have pointed you to be the one starting it all. Thus, argument about maintaining status quo (which is not even the case, as your plan completely backfired) means that india's goal is achieved, is a complete 180 to the facts on the ground.
I've asked you @twineedle many times in this thread asking for the proof of China's engagement back in early April to disprove the aforementioned narrative, yet so far it's still nil. You should have just kept quiet and not extend this pointless discussion any longer since you clearly can't accept all the on-the-nose evidences and examples that have disproven your story completely. Be it the 1962 comparison, evidences telling the exact storyline of what has happened in galwan valley, you basically deny it all and keep insisting that voluntary withdrawal, despite the change in LAC, equals to a win for india lol.
So enough with the status quo this, status quo that. There is no status quo, and india has never put status quo as its objective from the beginning because as many evidences have shown, evidences that you you can't rebut either, your side is the one who tries to change the status quo.
So a Chinese blog mentioned one of the PLA deaths who was part of the four and Indians want to pretend that makes a new number? Okay whatever makes your orange ass feel better I suppose.
Does that mean every time an Indian blog mentions any number of Indian deaths out of the 20+, that we should add that to India's total death count as well? In that case India's deaths measure in the thousands... well into the thousands.
As for land gain, well from before confrontation (and PLA occupation) to after - China gained the following;
Another lie would be IA being ambushed by PLA. Well the secondary ambush probably did happen but after the initial Babu attack on a PLA camp. This is China's official declaration of events and Indian gov has not refuted or challenged officially. Didn't even provide a counter narrative, accepting China's version of events to be true. It's been months since China showed that Indian gov lied about Indian soldiers not being armed. They were armed and they were equipped with protection gear when PLA wasn't. The Indian had iron bars even when they ganged up on a PLA communication/ liaison officer who exited his vehicle for talks back in April to May timeframe.
When has China been even hinted at lying? China's version has not even been challenged officially except from random info fed to Indian masses that suggest certain things. China has only not filled in things like how the PLA overcome the IA during June fight in order to capture so many Indians and how 20+ Indians were killed/died (well here China simply says those Indians died from being abandoned by Indian military and died from exposure). China has not provided info there at all because it is much more sensitive stuff even after the conflict. China also hasn't talked about still militarily occupying parts of Demchok, Gogra, and Hot Springs.
Does that mean every time an Indian blog mentions any number of Indian deaths out of the 20+, that we should add that to India's total death count as well? In that case India's deaths measure in the thousands... well into the thousands.
As for land gain, well from before confrontation (and PLA occupation) to after - China gained the following;
- India stepping off F4 to F8 and no longer have access to anything beyond F3. China didn't occupy before confrontation and didn't patrol anywhere near as often as India if India's own four star general VK Singh is to be believed which I think he is... if he says India did 5+ times more patrols than China, we can only imagine the truth may have been 20+ or much, much more since he talks for India and 100 is still >5.
- Seems like China has not disengaged from Gogra, Hot Springs, Demchok - no one here knows exactly how much, probably only some smaller portions of the stretches between the blue and dotted pink-black lines on the general map. Certainly not all otherwise even Indian government and media can't hide that and probably won't want to.
Another lie would be IA being ambushed by PLA. Well the secondary ambush probably did happen but after the initial Babu attack on a PLA camp. This is China's official declaration of events and Indian gov has not refuted or challenged officially. Didn't even provide a counter narrative, accepting China's version of events to be true. It's been months since China showed that Indian gov lied about Indian soldiers not being armed. They were armed and they were equipped with protection gear when PLA wasn't. The Indian had iron bars even when they ganged up on a PLA communication/ liaison officer who exited his vehicle for talks back in April to May timeframe.
When has China been even hinted at lying? China's version has not even been challenged officially except from random info fed to Indian masses that suggest certain things. China has only not filled in things like how the PLA overcome the IA during June fight in order to capture so many Indians and how 20+ Indians were killed/died (well here China simply says those Indians died from being abandoned by Indian military and died from exposure). China has not provided info there at all because it is much more sensitive stuff even after the conflict. China also hasn't talked about still militarily occupying parts of Demchok, Gogra, and Hot Springs.
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China doesn't talk much about what it gains and what it did well in. Notice that? Not even F4 to F8 dominance was officially given any "bravado" very unlike Indians who talk bravado over even failures... e.g. PLA rReETreEeeeTsSS! yeah ... after you agree to the conditions mentioned before and above (again). Also reminder again that PLA was willingly disengaged by China AFTER achieving the whole point of PLA engaging. China never controlled F4 to F8 (yeah they built a road on it which is understandably frustrating for India) and patrolled it when India did but couldn't match Indian numbers. India could easily deploy a dozen times as many troops and PLA got tired of confronting the increased Indian patrols which were done to make good India's claims and certainly to show opposition to Chinese roadbuilding.
India salami slicing is understandable BUT not acceptable to China. Indian increased patrols partly due to China building a road on one dispute stretch is also justifiable BUT not acceptable to China. While China calls this crisis as started by Indian build up and patrols, China did build a road themselves which is pretty hypocritical. Again here China seems very much committed to not giving India any budge. All of this seems very personal. Perhaps in a response to India's falling back on promises since the 1990s and again 2013 where both agreed to not flare any dispute up and antagonise each other. India has only increased antagonising China since the turn of the century/millennia but China has only supported Pakistan. That's the tricky part. China likely won't stop supporting Pakistan no matter how good India China relations get. That's never going to allow India to feel friendly towards China. Bit of a catch 22.
India salami slicing is understandable BUT not acceptable to China. Indian increased patrols partly due to China building a road on one dispute stretch is also justifiable BUT not acceptable to China. While China calls this crisis as started by Indian build up and patrols, China did build a road themselves which is pretty hypocritical. Again here China seems very much committed to not giving India any budge. All of this seems very personal. Perhaps in a response to India's falling back on promises since the 1990s and again 2013 where both agreed to not flare any dispute up and antagonise each other. India has only increased antagonising China since the turn of the century/millennia but China has only supported Pakistan. That's the tricky part. China likely won't stop supporting Pakistan no matter how good India China relations get. That's never going to allow India to feel friendly towards China. Bit of a catch 22.
India has not given the true number of Indian soldiers died in the Galwan clash. For sure it is more than 20+.
"Indian Army sources told the Telegraph that 23 troops are now confirmed to have died but casualties will significantly rise, with 110 soldiers injured and more troops still missing."
Trump talking about the Galwan clash at 18:30
"Indian Army sources told the Telegraph that 23 troops are now confirmed to have died but casualties will significantly rise, with 110 soldiers injured and more troops still missing."
Trump talking about the Galwan clash at 18:30
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