Apologize, did not realize it was posted previously. Sorry I cannot remove it.
Steven
Korean War 70 years later Win Lose and A draw
- Thread starter TerraN_EmpirE
- Start date
Apologize, did not realize it was posted previously. Sorry I cannot remove it.
Steven
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Should also be noted that post second world was the US Army in Asia was in occupation mode. Training had slipped most US troops deployed to Japan hadn’t fired a shot since Boot camp. It takes about 2 years to make a proper soldier. Longer to make a proper leader. Hand to hand fighting and charges of the type had been encountered before by the US army, in the Pacific theater vs the Japanese.
However by that point the veteran soldiers who had that experience were either transferred to Europe, took positions state side or had served their time and were civilians.
Then came the factor that produced the largest number of casualties the Winter.
Much like had happened to the Germans in Russia or US in the Battle of the Bulge cold was a killer. The Mercury was negative thirty two. US forces were at the very edges of the supply trains frequently lacking cold weather gear, rations froze and weapons iced up in the cold conditions. Even propellant for artillery burned differently in that cold. Frost bite was common.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Mao son Mao Anying, Zhou Enlai and his wife. The story goes the elder Mao kept his son pijama and clothes as if he is still alive. Consoling mother who lost son in Korea war he said he know the feeling.
No probs.
This is it. What people don't realise is how much of a big deal is for China. All those talks by some posters here about how much more turf US gain. Blah blah blah.
It was never about turf. It was and still is about the very existence of China, and in particular the PRC.
Enemy at the gate was halted at the gate. Not only that, the psychological blow must have been enormous. The enemy later change course (I know the Soviets. Blah blah) to embrace China (the good kind of commies). Lol.
It bought China time, time enough to develop her economic and social well being to become the second largest economy in the world, and the biggest or 2nd biggest trading partner of almost all countries of the world.
And the rest is history.
The best known battle during the Korean War was probably the that took place in the northeast Korea in extremely freezing weather, in which the US 1st Marine Division and its attached units battled with CPVA's 9th Army Group for 17 days. The 20,000 US troops were encircled and attacked by 120,000 Chinese troops and had to break out from the untenable situation to retreat to the port of Hungnam to be evacuated there. Both the US 1st Marine Division and Chinese 9th Army Group were elite units in their respective forces.
Two of the scenes during the battle that struck me most over the years were also representative of strength and character of these military men and soldiers.
The US retreat was impeded by a 29-foot gap of the bridge. They would have to bridge the gap. The Marines made emergency request for a parachute drop of treadway bridge sections, which had to be made in Japan. On December 7, eight big Air Force C-119 Flying Boxcars carried one bridge section each, weighing close to 2,500 pounds delivered the equipment. During a seven-day period, the bridge were surrounded by Chinese troops around the nearby hills and were blown out three times. Yet the US Marines still managed to bridge the gap and broke out. It was a narrow escape, literally. They were supported by the air craft launched from other places in Korea as well as five aircraft carriers in the Sea of Japan. It was sheer superior air power, logistics coordination, and engineering prowess on display.
The gap in the bridge at Funchilin prevented any movement south of American vehicles.
The "Ice Sculpture Company"
The Chinese, meanwhile, did not have such luxury. They would have to rely on the terrain and landscape, the tactics and the discipline to overcome the weakness in firepower, and the lack of air cover, armor and logistics. Six divisions got into positions several days in advance along the retreat route to cut the US Marines into segments, hoping to engulf them. The 9th Army Group were from Southeast China and was preparing for the battle of Taiwan when they were promptly transported to Korea. They only had light winter clothing, suitable for Southern China, when they entered Korea. Most of the soldiers were southerners and had never experienced freezing cold weather in Korea. Many of these troops waited in the freezing cold for a week to attack the US troops. Several of the units were found to have never initiated any action and let pass the respective US troops. They were later found to be frozen to death in their fighting positions. The entire units.
They include:
the 6th Company of the 2nd Battalion in the 177th Regiment of the 59th Division of the 20th Corp.
the 5th Company of the 240th Regiment in the 80th Division of the 27th Corp.
the 2nd Company of the 180th Regiment in the 60th Division of the 20th Corp.
among others.
In the end, many of the CPVA soldiers could not muster any energy to initiate actions and would have to let pass the retreating US troops in front of them. They were frozen had exhausted to the limit of any human.
It was reported that the 1950 winter in northern Korea was the coldest in 50 years, with temperature near minus 40 Celsius degrees.
Two of the scenes during the battle that struck me most over the years were also representative of strength and character of these military men and soldiers.
The US retreat was impeded by a 29-foot gap of the bridge. They would have to bridge the gap. The Marines made emergency request for a parachute drop of treadway bridge sections, which had to be made in Japan. On December 7, eight big Air Force C-119 Flying Boxcars carried one bridge section each, weighing close to 2,500 pounds delivered the equipment. During a seven-day period, the bridge were surrounded by Chinese troops around the nearby hills and were blown out three times. Yet the US Marines still managed to bridge the gap and broke out. It was a narrow escape, literally. They were supported by the air craft launched from other places in Korea as well as five aircraft carriers in the Sea of Japan. It was sheer superior air power, logistics coordination, and engineering prowess on display.
The gap in the bridge at Funchilin prevented any movement south of American vehicles.
The "Ice Sculpture Company"
The Chinese, meanwhile, did not have such luxury. They would have to rely on the terrain and landscape, the tactics and the discipline to overcome the weakness in firepower, and the lack of air cover, armor and logistics. Six divisions got into positions several days in advance along the retreat route to cut the US Marines into segments, hoping to engulf them. The 9th Army Group were from Southeast China and was preparing for the battle of Taiwan when they were promptly transported to Korea. They only had light winter clothing, suitable for Southern China, when they entered Korea. Most of the soldiers were southerners and had never experienced freezing cold weather in Korea. Many of these troops waited in the freezing cold for a week to attack the US troops. Several of the units were found to have never initiated any action and let pass the respective US troops. They were later found to be frozen to death in their fighting positions. The entire units.
They include:
the 6th Company of the 2nd Battalion in the 177th Regiment of the 59th Division of the 20th Corp.
the 5th Company of the 240th Regiment in the 80th Division of the 27th Corp.
the 2nd Company of the 180th Regiment in the 60th Division of the 20th Corp.
among others.
In the end, many of the CPVA soldiers could not muster any energy to initiate actions and would have to let pass the retreating US troops in front of them. They were frozen had exhausted to the limit of any human.
It was reported that the 1950 winter in northern Korea was the coldest in 50 years, with temperature near minus 40 Celsius degrees.
Phoenix_Rising
Junior Member
The entire "Chosin encirclement" narrative has long been exaggerated.
Smith (Commander of the 1st Marine Division) had a good smell of the battlefield. He tried very hard to slow the advance despite urges from Almond and asked his staff to get ready for a retreat. The US 10th Army didn't get into the position where the CVP 9th Corps Group set for them. Meanwhile, on the west front, the CPV 3rd CG already had the enemy in the right position, the attack had to be commenced.
That made Chosin a chase-retreat battle instead of an encirclement.
And that outnumbered stuff.
The 9th Corps Group did not fought only with the USMC, the 3rd and 7th Division of the US Army had also involved in the campaign. Somehow they usually do not count in when people talk about Chosin.
The entire 9th CG was not put into the fight simultanously. It was more of an attrition instead of an encirclement. The CPV indeed had number advantage in some combat, but not that many, not that often.
What is the source for this paragraph? The 27th Army of IXth Army Group was based in Shijiazhuang, Hebei. That's not Southern China. The 20th Army of IXth Army Group was HQed in Kaifeng, Henan. The narrative doesn't sound right.
Hundreds of thousands of ROC army troops surrendered to the PLA. Those guys were well equipped. CPC troops had long operated and fought in Northern China, during WW2 and the Civil War. How could it be that China could not procure or salvage winter clothing for a mere 250k CPVA that fought in the first phase of the intervention?
Phoenix_Rising
Junior Member
meh...you can't use their post-1980s location to locate these corps in 1950.
The 9th Corps Group was part of the 3rd Field Army, and the 3rd Field Army was the main force in east front of Campaign Crossing Yangtze in April 1949.
After captured Nanking and Shanghai, the 9th and 10th CG marched southwards along the coastline. In 1950, their priority mission was to guard the coastline in Fujian, Zhejiang, and launch attacks to liberate coastal islands.
There is no argument about where did the 9CG begin to mobilize.
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As for why 9CG did not swap to winter clothes, well...
The military logistic department and local government had prepared enough winter equipment, but because someone committed a totally NUTS treason crime, 9th CG lost their time to swap their gears.
That traitor was the vice-president of China's Democratic Union (中国民主同盟，民盟）, Zhang Dongsun (张东荪).
About his treason action, well, he made a very bold move for a very coward cause. It was so pointless that hard to start the story.
Ok, here. The state of PRC was constructed by the first Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, in September 1949. CPC invited all major political parties (even the left-wing faction of KuoMinTang) to built a new country. With his reputation, his high position in CDU, and his effort in the peaceful liberation of Beijing, Zhang got a membership in Central People's Committee (another CPC lol), the government's top policymaking body.
Soon, Zhang turned out that he was a soooo deeply-rooted US worshipper. Despite all clear hostility from US, he still strongly opposed the foreign policy to completely side with USSR.
From here, you need to follow up on his mental gymnastics to understand the whole thing.
After the decision of Repel US and Aid Korea was made, Zhang believed it would expand into WW3, and the socialist camp would lose, and China would end up in unspeakable misery.
So, Zhang took action that he thought could avoid the result he imagined. He decided to persuade the American to spare China.
In Zhang's logic, by building contact with US, he could prove some usefulness for Americans. Then he could save people that he thought could represent the essence of Chinese culture, get some space in the puppet government imposed onto China, etc. to preserve China in another form. As for the damage he could make, Zhang didn't even consider it since he believed the fail of China was such a certainty that his move would change it at all.
To prove his sincerity and usefulness, Zhang Dongsun reached a KMT spy named Wang Zhiqi (王志奇), who claimed he had channels to the US. Zhang gave Wang many intels, the most vital one among them was, well, just as you guessed, the timetable and the route of 9th Corps Group. Wang had been on the suspect list, and Zhang was a real amateur of secret action, the whole thing was busted very soon, but still too late.
CPV could not take the risk of 100000 troops got bombed in transport or march into an ambush, they must move faster than the enemy could react. The whole schedule was hastened to an extreme. Trains skipped all stations, left mountains of thick clothes and shoes behind.
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