Korean War 70 years later Win Lose and A draw

TerraN_EmpirE said:

If you want to argue the conflict between 1945 and 1950 was a Civil war fine. Then your own argument gets pointed at China and Russia. The ROK was maintaining despite incursions from the DPRK.
But the main war the 1950 on conflict? That was the Soviets and Chinese Injecting themselves into the conflict.
The Soviets and Chinese armed and equipped the KPA to a 135,000 men half were veterans of both her Red army and PLA included in that would be Kim himself who was appointed by the Soviets after serving in the Red army. They armed the KPA to easily trounce the ROK.

• 8 Full Divisions.
• Each Division had a full artillery regiment
• 2 half divisions
• 2 separate regiments including 120 T34/85 Tanks, 5 Boarder Police Brigades
• 180 Soviet Aircraft both fighters and bombers.
• Naval Patrol craft
  
  Farther more the plan for invasion was done by Soviet advisers

They faced The ROK army, raised as a constabulary to fight the DPRK incursions. 95,000 men

• 8 under strength Divisions 3 spread across the boarder for COIN.
• 89 total 105mm light guns.
• 0 tanks
• Flight trainers + light aircraft
• The ROKN matched the KPAN.

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Not sure why people are arguing that somehow this was China or the Soviet Union's fault. Both NoKo and SoKo wanted to unite the country. In fact, SoKo had 0 tanks because the US was worried SoKo might do something with it if they did.

By the time UN was deciding to cross the 38th parallel, the NoKo forces were fully routed. China warned publicly that if UN forces crossed the 38th parallel, it would have to take matters into its own hands. MacArthur thought this was just a bluff, and even if it wasn't, there wasn't much the Chinese could do to fix the situation.

discspinner said:

Not sure why people are arguing that somehow this was China or the Soviet Union's fault. Both NoKo and SoKo wanted to unite the country. In fact, SoKo had 0 tanks because the US was worried SoKo might do something with it if they did.

By the time UN was deciding to cross the 38th parallel, the NoKo forces were fully routed. China warned publicly that if UN forces crossed the 38th parallel, it would have to take matters into its own hands. MacArthur thought this was just a bluff, and even if it wasn't, there wasn't much the Chinese could do to fix the situation.

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Everyone here agrees that SK and NK wanted to reunify. That is the reason why the US basically disarmed SK, BUT NK was armed to the teeth by the USSR specifically for the invasion. Before the USSR armed NK, NK was busy causing uprisings against Rhee's authoritarian regime but didnt have the capacity nor the confidence to invade. That was one of the reasons why Kim Il Sung went to the USSR to convince Stalin for arms and supplies. IF NK was not armed to the point that they feel confident enough to they can invade SK, they won't invade despite their desire to unify the Korean peninsula. Please look at my previous posts' links. They are all well written articles that utilize sources that were involved with the matter.

As for the Western agenda that some users seem to think I'm pushing for, Im not. I understand that the Hong Kong, Taiwan, Covid 19, and the de facto US/Western Civilization-China Cold War can really piss off any Chinese patriot. However, history is history and you cant just deny it unless you can prove your point with direct sources or articles that utilize those sources. Your rants and anecdotes dont count.

If anything history are written by the winner So take what is written in history with a gob of salt. Or in Korea case written by who has the loudest loudspeaker(western media, analyst, historian)

“History is always written by the winners. When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books-books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe. As Napoleon once said, 'What is history, but a fable agreed upon?”

discspinner said:

Not sure why people are arguing that somehow this was China or the Soviet Union's fault. Both NoKo and SoKo wanted to unite the country. In fact, SoKo had 0 tanks because the US was worried SoKo might do something with it if they did.

By the time UN was deciding to cross the 38th parallel, the NoKo forces were fully routed. China warned publicly that if UN forces crossed the 38th parallel, it would have to take matters into its own hands. MacArthur thought this was just a bluff, and even if it wasn't, there wasn't much the Chinese could do to fix the situation.

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Again there was no direct contact between the UN and China. Contact was by proxy.
It’s true MacArthur didn’t think it would happen heck he probably thought he could win if it had. Yet then again remember the time here other than massive numbers of manpower China was a backwater. Western nations viewed it as a puppet of the Soviets. Whom was thought as the big bad. Yes there was a degree of racism in that.
Both Kim and Rhea were Korean Nationalists. Both foresaw what he have today that if the two states remain separate they would culturally divide.

Much like the KPA had been in its push to the south the UN in the push back north was quickly out running the lines as the KPA either stripped off there uniforms and joined the civilians joined Southern troops or retreated north.
The Division it’s self was at the heart routed in the means by which the war had ended. The Soviets at the end of the Second World War set to establish satellites across where their troops took control. By blustering existing communist parties or implanting them. That’s the North.
The US set about trying to form Democratic republics with self rule. Which isn’t exactly what happened but was the aim.

The modern mindset is to stop at the 38th. Yet that wouldn’t have ended the conflict we know that now because of what did happen. The Soviets and Chinese came in. Had the UN stopped They would have come in and basically occupied the DPRK rearming and preparing for round 2.
Why? The Soviets wanted a buffer state to keep the west out.
We see this in Eastern Europe.
The CCP was simultaneously launching its own Imperialist expansion into the Western China. With Xanijang and Tibet.
They wanted a buffer and satellite. We know this as post war Kim was purging pro Chinese factions. Given the drive that had pushed Kim he would have done everything in his power to repeat the drive south. So it would have ended the same way. Or worse a second Divided Germany in the East.

Again that would have been the modern mindset which basically ended the war the same way we know it did only longer out with possibly higher death tolls. For the then mindset I point to the end of the Second World War. Once the allies had the German forces on the run on 44 were they supposed to stop at the German border?
For the UN to stop wasn’t realistic as it only would have prolonged the conflict. Kim might have tried to rally the forces and regroup but couldn’t do that without help from the Soviets or Chinese or both. That would have resulted in a failed anarchy of the North, or Soviet intervention resetting the table to June 1950.IE why have to fight the war all over again? It might also have encouraged the Soviets to try another blockade or action in Europe which was still a hot spot. The Berlin Airlift had ended only 18 months ago.

Stopping at the 38th might have been debated but was never going to happen. No matter how you want to spin it.

Once the Soviets and Chinese green lit the invasion of the ROK. The second the KPA started retreating their was only one outcome the Russian and Chinese intervention. They had to intervene to show that they were a power in the Cold War, to prevent the potential of Korean reunification under the UN on both their boarders. By either surrender of the DPRK, collapse of the DPRK internally or occupation by UN forces.
Neither Stalin nor Mao could allow it. They could only accept complete victory or return to the status quo.
IE neither side could not cross the Rubicon without loosing prestige.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Again there was no direct contact between the UN and China. Contact was by proxy.
It’s true MacArthur didn’t think it would happen heck he probably thought he could win if it had. Yet then again remember the time here other than massive numbers of manpower China was a backwater. Western nations viewed it as a puppet of the Soviets. Whom was thought as the big bad. Yes there was a degree of racism in that.
Both Kim and Rhea were Korean Nationalists. Both foresaw what he have today that if the two states remain separate they would culturally divide.

Much like the KPA had been in its push to the south the UN in the push back north was quickly out running the lines as the KPA either stripped off there uniforms and joined the civilians joined Southern troops or retreated north.
The Division it’s self was at the heart routed in the means by which the war had ended. The Soviets at the end of the Second World War set to establish satellites across where their troops took control. By blustering existing communist parties or implanting them. That’s the North.
The US set about trying to form Democratic republics with self rule. Which isn’t exactly what happened but was the aim.

The modern mindset is to stop at the 38th. Yet that wouldn’t have ended the conflict we know that now because of what did happen. The Soviets and Chinese came in. Had the UN stopped They would have come in and basically occupied the DPRK rearming and preparing for round 2.
Why? The Soviets wanted a buffer state to keep the west out.
We see this in Eastern Europe.
The CCP was simultaneously launching its own Imperialist expansion into the Western China. With Xanijang and Tibet.
They wanted a buffer and satellite. We know this as post war Kim was purging pro Chinese factions. Given the drive that had pushed Kim he would have done everything in his power to repeat the drive south. So it would have ended the same way. Or worse a second Divided Germany in the East.

Again that would have been the modern mindset which basically ended the war the same way we know it did only longer out with possibly higher death tolls. For the then mindset I point to the end of the Second World War. Once the allies had the German forces on the run on 44 were they supposed to stop at the German border?
For the UN to stop wasn’t realistic as it only would have prolonged the conflict. Kim might have tried to rally the forces and regroup but couldn’t do that without help from the Soviets or Chinese or both. That would have resulted in a failed anarchy of the North, or Soviet intervention resetting the table to June 1950.IE why have to fight the war all over again? It might also have encouraged the Soviets to try another blockade or action in Europe which was still a hot spot. The Berlin Airlift had ended only 18 months ago.

Stopping at the 38th might have been debated but was never going to happen. No matter how you want to spin it.

Once the Soviets and Chinese green lit the invasion of the ROK. The second the KPA started retreating their was only one outcome the Russian and Chinese intervention. They had to intervene to show that they were a power in the Cold War, to prevent the potential of Korean reunification under the UN on both their boarders. By either surrender of the DPRK, collapse of the DPRK internally or occupation by UN forces.
Neither Stalin nor Mao could allow it. They could only accept complete victory or return to the status quo.
IE neither side could not cross the Rubicon without loosing prestige.

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How do you launch an imperial expansion into your own territory? You know Xinjiang and Tibet, both of which been Chinese territory longer than most nations. It is called continuation of civil war. Just because PRC was founded in 1949 doesn't mean the civil war is over. Most of southern China didn't get turned over to the CCP until 1950, western side even later. Taiwan province is still holding out.

Sardaukar20 said:

Agreed. Without the USAF and USN. There is little to fear from the average US soldier.

Because this is the same US Army and USMC that fought in WW2. I think a comment from a Wehrmacht tank ace: Otto Carius applies quite well to the US performance in the Korean War. Having faced the Soviets in the Eastern Front before, he holds US soldiers in much lower regard. He said that one Soviet soldier is worth 5 US soldiers. He noticed that US soldiers call in artillery and the airforce all the time. While Soviet soldiers would not shy away from brutal house to house combat.

US soldiers in WW2 faced a Germany and Japan that have exhausted 70% of their fighting strength in the Soviet Union and China.

When they finally met Chinese troops in Korea. They just couldn't handle them. The PVA used infantry maneuver strategies to surround and surprise whole divisions of US-led UN forces during the war.

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It is disrespectful to write like this. Soldiers on both sides fought bravely and are deservedly honored for their sacrifice.

I will remind you of the battle of the Chosin Reservoir. The US 7th Infantry division and the 1st Marine Division were completely surrounded by PVA forces outnumbering them 4:1, perhaps even 5:1. They suffered nearly 50% combined battle and non-battle (due to extreme weather) casualties. Yet, they kept their cohesion, broke through the encirclement and retreated in orderly fashion with most of their equipment and a stable morale. It is very rare for military units to sustain so much damage and not be broken.

PiSigma said:

How do you launch an imperial expansion into your own territory? You know Xinjiang and Tibet, both of which been Chinese territory longer than most nations. It is called continuation of civil war. Just because PRC was founded in 1949 doesn't mean the civil war is over. Most of southern China didn't get turned over to the CCP until 1950, western side even later. Taiwan province is still holding out.

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I'm afraid this is the fantasy world some of our posters here live in. I mean cone on, not even their own country's government recognised these provinces as not Chinese. If they believe they are separate independent countries, then perhaps they should inform their government first.

These often are the same people that goes on about the rule of law and facts. Yet the stuff they come out with couldn't be further away from facts and the rule of law.

Take their justification for US intervention as the "dominoes theory". Is enough to wage war half way around the world, far far away from the comfort of their armchair.

Yet, when China face the biggest military the world has ever since assembling right in front of China's door step. "Enemy at the gate".

China is wrong to respond despite giving plenty of warnings (no direct communication as an excuse. Give me strength). And dispite the most honoured general in the U.S. threatening to invade China. And have crossed over with their planes to China numerous occasions.

China's is at fault and responsible for the hundreds of thousands of death. The logic is impeccable! Sarcasm mode on.

Insignius said:

The US troops in Chosin had not starved a single day despite being surrounded. They got air-dropped Turkey for thanksgiving and even complained about them being cold. Meanwhile, the PVA ACTUALLY starved and froze to death while being napalmed 24/7 by the US who had total air-supremacy during the whole campaign. Of course any military unit worth their name wouldnt break when they had a functioning supply line and total air supremacy at their backs, while their enemies wore straw sandals in winter, had no artillery heavier than mortars and no guns of newer designs than the late 1930s.

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Exactly, as I mentioned in a few post back. One US regiment have more firepower than one Chinese Corp. No doubt more rations and everything else those pampered babies demanded.

Yet, this facts are there for all to see. It isn't Chinese propaganda. Yet, some posters here deliberately choose to ignore or down played the disparity between the two forces.

Oh how they live in their alternate universe!

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Again there was no direct contact between the UN and China. Contact was by proxy.
It’s true MacArthur didn’t think it would happen heck he probably thought he could win if it had. Yet then again remember the time here other than massive numbers of manpower China was a backwater. Western nations viewed it as a puppet of the Soviets. Whom was thought as the big bad. Yes there was a degree of racism in that.
Both Kim and Rhea were Korean Nationalists. Both foresaw what he have today that if the two states remain separate they would culturally divide.

Much like the KPA had been in its push to the south the UN in the push back north was quickly out running the lines as the KPA either stripped off there uniforms and joined the civilians joined Southern troops or retreated north.
The Division it’s self was at the heart routed in the means by which the war had ended. The Soviets at the end of the Second World War set to establish satellites across where their troops took control. By blustering existing communist parties or implanting them. That’s the North.
The US set about trying to form Democratic republics with self rule. Which isn’t exactly what happened but was the aim.

The modern mindset is to stop at the 38th. Yet that wouldn’t have ended the conflict we know that now because of what did happen. The Soviets and Chinese came in. Had the UN stopped They would have come in and basically occupied the DPRK rearming and preparing for round 2.
Why? The Soviets wanted a buffer state to keep the west out.
We see this in Eastern Europe.
The CCP was simultaneously launching its own Imperialist expansion into the Western China. With Xanijang and Tibet.
They wanted a buffer and satellite. We know this as post war Kim was purging pro Chinese factions. Given the drive that had pushed Kim he would have done everything in his power to repeat the drive south. So it would have ended the same way. Or worse a second Divided Germany in the East.

Again that would have been the modern mindset which basically ended the war the same way we know it did only longer out with possibly higher death tolls. For the then mindset I point to the end of the Second World War. Once the allies had the German forces on the run on 44 were they supposed to stop at the German border?
For the UN to stop wasn’t realistic as it only would have prolonged the conflict. Kim might have tried to rally the forces and regroup but couldn’t do that without help from the Soviets or Chinese or both. That would have resulted in a failed anarchy of the North, or Soviet intervention resetting the table to June 1950.IE why have to fight the war all over again? It might also have encouraged the Soviets to try another blockade or action in Europe which was still a hot spot. The Berlin Airlift had ended only 18 months ago.

Stopping at the 38th might have been debated but was never going to happen. No matter how you want to spin it.

Once the Soviets and Chinese green lit the invasion of the ROK. The second the KPA started retreating their was only one outcome the Russian and Chinese intervention. They had to intervene to show that they were a power in the Cold War, to prevent the potential of Korean reunification under the UN on both their boarders. By either surrender of the DPRK, collapse of the DPRK internally or occupation by UN forces.
Neither Stalin nor Mao could allow it. They could only accept complete victory or return to the status quo.
IE neither side could not cross the Rubicon without loosing prestige.

Click to expand...

One thing I would agree with you is that from the perspective of the UN (read US and western democratic allies), UN forces had to continue pushing north of the 38th parallel to conclusively end the war and unify the country. Not surprisingly, this is exactly why the CCP leadership issued the warning that China would intervene if that were to occur. The rationale from China's side was that even at that point, the retreating North Korean forces could still regroup and halt ROK forces north of the 38th parallel. Of course, China was preparing for the worst nevertheless.

War epic "The Sacrifice" amassed 400 million yuan ($60 million) in 3 days of its release after its debut coinciding with the 70th anniversary of the Chinese People's Volunteers entering the DPRK to fight in the War to Resist US Aggression and Aid Korea (1950-53)