Korea 2013... War Game or political game changer?

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
North Korean population will be a huge problem for united Korea . They are very poor , practically starving and with no meaningful working skills for highly automatized South Korean industry . Imagine that Kim's regime disappear today . What would happen ? Millions of North Koreans would just stream across the border into South Korea looking for a piece of bread . They would compete with South Koreans for manual jobs (bringing the wages down) , some of them would beg on the streets , maybe even resort to crime .

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do you know thats really narrow minded of you to say that about the average North Korean people, i bet they are really nice people and want eveything a normal people want, jobs, education, health care, freedom etc etc

it is not thier fault they came under the rule of a sad sadistic leader like Fat Boy Slim, infact China has responsibility here as they were the ones who pushed back the UN forces from the Yalu River during Korean War, otherwise North Korea wouldnt even existed in the first place, the allies had defeated the North, the war was almost over, if China didnt interfere we wouldnt be in this situation, so I dont really find you that funny, anyhow past is past

it is every persons duty to give freedom to the North Korean people, this is 2013 and there is no place in this world that a regime like Kimmys can be in power, people inside are dying of hunger and they dont even have mobile phones or access to the internet

South Korea people are nice hard working people, so North cant be that different, we cant sit in fear that 20 million people will need food so dont free them, its like they are in jail and need to be released, its a shame a real shame

sooner or later this crack regime is going to do something really bad, they have no mind, they must be neutralised at any cost, i think the entire Kim family tree from top to bottom should be assasinated and killed, they have blood on thier hands and followed Soviet Communist idealogy, for that they must be held accountable, all i can say is that i hope and wish North Korean people, the average person sees freedom sooner rather than later
 

MwRYum

Major
do you know thats really narrow minded of you to say that about the average North Korean people, i bet they are really nice people and want eveything a normal people want, jobs, education, health care, freedom etc etc

it is not thier fault they came under the rule of a sad sadistic leader like Fat Boy Slim, infact China has responsibility here as they were the ones who pushed back the UN forces from the Yalu River during Korean War, otherwise North Korea wouldnt even existed in the first place, the allies had defeated the North, the war was almost over, if China didnt interfere we wouldnt be in this situation, so I dont really find you that funny, anyhow past is past

it is every persons duty to give freedom to the North Korean people, this is 2013 and there is no place in this world that a regime like Kimmys can be in power, people inside are dying of hunger and they dont even have mobile phones or access to the internet

South Korea people are nice hard working people, so North cant be that different, we cant sit in fear that 20 million people will need food so dont free them, its like they are in jail and need to be released, its a shame a real shame

sooner or later this crack regime is going to do something really bad, they have no mind, they must be neutralised at any cost, i think the entire Kim family tree from top to bottom should be assasinated and killed, they have blood on thier hands and followed Soviet Communist idealogy, for that they must be held accountable, all i can say is that i hope and wish North Korean people, the average person sees freedom sooner rather than later

If you've read your Korean War history you'd already know that General MacArthur wasn't content with just wiping out the N.Korea, he aimed to cross the Yalu River and defeat the (then) newly minted PRC, it's under this prospect Beijing intervened militarily and the rest is history. Beijing isn't fond of keep giving freebies (in the form of aid) to N.Korea, but like I've said before, that's an inconvenient price to pay for a buffer zone - either that or having the entire northeastern China's industrial centre under US artillery reach, and Beijing within land-based strike fighters' mission radius.

That's the sad hard truth of things...in your ideal world, Beijing won't have to put up with such crap for its own security, just as much as India and Pakistan shouldn't be at each other's throat. It's an ugly world we lived in.

Calling China to "do something" is easy, but as long as Beijing can't get something tangible out of ditching the Kims, doing anything for the sake of N.Koreans just ain't gonna happen...especially in this age when Chinese people no longer talking about "friendship and brotherhood" with its neighboring states, but what China can get out of it. So all Beijing - or perhaps everybody - can do is wait till to see if N.Korea is all just hot air or go for broke this time, force a game changer upon this situation and see where we all go from there.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Despite the invective directed at the North Korean leadership and the general attempts at ridicule, I would like to draw your attention to the most recent comments coming from Washington and its allies.
Reading those comments and measuring them in accordance with the "63 protocol" I would like to ask you all this question

Who do you think has just blinked?
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
do you know thats really narrow minded of you to say that about the average North Korean people, i bet they are really nice people and want eveything a normal people want, jobs, education, health care, freedom etc etc

it is not thier fault they came under the rule of a sad sadistic leader like Fat Boy Slim, infact China has responsibility here as they were the ones who pushed back the UN forces from the Yalu River during Korean War, otherwise North Korea wouldnt even existed in the first place, the allies had defeated the North, the war was almost over, if China didnt interfere we wouldnt be in this situation, so I dont really find you that funny, anyhow past is past

it is every persons duty to give freedom to the North Korean people, this is 2013 and there is no place in this world that a regime like Kimmys can be in power, people inside are dying of hunger and they dont even have mobile phones or access to the internet

South Korea people are nice hard working people, so North cant be that different, we cant sit in fear that 20 million people will need food so dont free them, its like they are in jail and need to be released, its a shame a real shame

sooner or later this crack regime is going to do something really bad, they have no mind, they must be neutralised at any cost, i think the entire Kim family tree from top to bottom should be assasinated and killed, they have blood on thier hands and followed Soviet Communist idealogy, for that they must be held accountable, all i can say is that i hope and wish North Korean people, the average person sees freedom sooner rather than later


I would say you are very naive about the ways of the world . You may WANT something but it is entirely different matter can you EARN it , or would you expect someone else to give it to you . Who is responsible for current state of affairs in North Korea is debatable , but I don't want to get into that (although I believe every nation has government it deserves - you probably disagree ;) )

Main point is , no matter who is to blame , North Koreans in current state of affairs would be a huge problem for SK or any other country for that matter . They are like sick man who cannot take care of itself , but can infect others . Therefore , if and when Kim's regime falls they would have to be carefully nourished to health .

There are other questions in this matter , like strategic interests of China , US , Japan , Russia etc but I won't dwell on that now .
 

MwRYum

Major
Despite the invective directed at the North Korean leadership and the general attempts at ridicule, I would like to draw your attention to the most recent comments coming from Washington and its allies.
Reading those comments and measuring them in accordance with the "63 protocol" I would like to ask you all this question

Who do you think has just blinked?

Er...sadly, the Americans, I presume?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Despite the invective directed at the North Korean leadership and the general attempts at ridicule, I would like to draw your attention to the most recent comments coming from Washington and its allies.
Reading those comments and measuring them in accordance with the "63 protocol" I would like to ask you all this question

Who do you think has just blinked?

And what has NK gotten out of making the Americans 'blink'?

All I see isthe America deciding they didn't actually need it want to lower themself to NK's level and play petty oneupmanship over nothing and decided to throw Kim a ladder to climb down before his need to outdo the Americans overcame what good sense he has and did something America cannot ignore.
 

solarz

Brigadier
It is quite funny to me that while the membership here is convinced that the Western media is out there to blacken China's name and there are even threads dedicated to that the latest one is "Why does the West gets China wrong". But then turn around and are willing to believe anything that the same Western media are saying about North Korea. If you are someone who thinks that statements coming from North Korea and their closing of the Kaeson industrial zone or moving around a few missile's is provocative, but if the Americans are flying B-2 stealth bombers with nuclear capabilities close to the DMZ is not. Then you have already internalized all of the half truth and distortions that the media is selling you. If everyone on this forum believed everything that the media says about China then we would have had a very different forum than the one we have now. Why are members willing to believe things said in the media about North Korea and not China ? That is because of a lack of knowledge about North Korea and the history of the nuclear crisis on the Korean Peninsula. The Kim dynasty has a lot to answer for the situation inside of North Korea and the tensions on the Peninsula and the wider region, but they are not the only ones to blame. The history of the North Korean nuclear crisis didn't begin in february 2013 but back in 1994.

Agreed. I've also pointed this out above. People here are too willing to believe the anti-NK propaganda from the West.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
And what has NK gotten out of making the Americans 'blink'?

All I see isthe America deciding they didn't actually need it want to lower themself to NK's level and play petty oneupmanship over nothing and decided to throw Kim a ladder to climb down before his need to outdo the Americans overcame what good sense he has and did something America cannot ignore.

Oh come on Wolfie. You seem to be having a right old hump with me recently and I think its blunting your usually razor sharp incisive insight.

I can think of three things that young Mr Kim (and the rest of the DPRK leadership) have achieved in this.

1) Young Mr Kim can and will take it to the wire. He has thus cemented his position as leader and not lost face when standing up to the great Hyper Power. I think many Koreans on both sides of the DMZ will take notice of this.

2) If the US was trying to prove that having Nuclear Weapons and Missiles is not of itself a guarantee of security, it has then spectacularly backfired and many other nations will have taken note. I assume you do not think its is coincidence that all this has been happening while the Iranians and P6+1 have been sitting down in Almaty do you?

3) The North Koreans have been able to take back every card that they had negotiated away over the last ten years and have them in the hand again ready for play. I am sure they will be saying "and maybe this time you would like to take the game a bit more seriously Uncle Sam"

All in all not a bad result I would say.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Oh come on Wolfie. You seem to be having a right old hump with me recently and I think its blunting your usually razor sharp incisive insight.

Haha Sampan, please don't take it personally as I assume you I have nothing but the highest regard for you as a person. ;) I was not disagreeing with you because I had anything against you, only because I don't agree with some of your take on this particular issue.

1) Young Mr Kim can and will take it to the wire. He has thus cemented his position as leader and not lost face when standing up to the great Hyper Power. I think many Koreans on both sides of the DMZ will take notice of this.

Well valid point, but I do not recall anyone suggesting he was a soft touch or questioning, never mind challenging his authority or position before this all kicked off, so it seems like a pretty costly and excessive exercise, not to mention a massive gamble to prove a point that was never seriously in question. Well, not in question to anyone outside of NK anyways.

If anything, his extreme behaviour would tend to actually raise and fuel speculation about just how secure he is in his new position as supreme leader of NK, because if had a point to prove, it does not really seem like it was to anyone outside of NK.

2) If the US was trying to prove that having Nuclear Weapons and Missiles is not of itself a guarantee of security, it has then spectacularly backfired and many other nations will have taken note. I assume you do not think its is coincidence that all this has been happening while the Iranians and P6+1 have been sitting down in Almaty do you?

Valid point, but what I don't see is how this benefits NK in any way. Why would NK go to all that trouble to spend all that diplomatic and actual capital and take such an almighty risk just to do the Iranians a solid?

3) The North Koreans have been able to take back every card that they had negotiated away over the last ten years and have them in the hand again ready for play. I am sure they will be saying "and maybe this time you would like to take the game a bit more seriously Uncle Sam"

Well I think this is the best point of the three. If NK does restart production at the previously close down reactor, it will give them another big chip to use to try and bargain with get concessions from the Americans and South Koreans.

The fly in the ointment is that America and South Korea have memories longer than that of a gold fish. So the next time NK offers up to put one of its reactors out of commission in exchange for whatever it is they want for example, I somehow doubt the Americans and South Koreas will settle for the same measures and safeguards as before since those obviously were not adequate to the job.

So yes NK did get some cards back into its hands, but the same concessions will just not cut it next time, so if NK wants to reuse those cards again at a later date, the US and SK are going to demand more from NK in return. So the value of those cards are greatly diminished.

All in all not a bad result I would say.

Well, good points and I concede that NK did get something out of this mess in the form or bargaining chips it can reuse to to things from the world, although at a diminished value.

But what price did NK pay to get those cards back?

It was paid a real economic cost in that it has suspended operations at one of the only legitimate revenue generating operations in the whole of NK. The Chinese actually co-sponsored a new set of UN sanctions, and more importantly, seems more willing to enforce it and are putting the squeeze on the black and grey market that helps keep NK's economy and hard pressed people going.

In terms of political and diplomatic costs, NK has greatly annoyed China's new leaders with this stunt, and that won't be forgotten in a hurry. The Americans and South Koreans are likely to demand far more solid assurances and guarantees in future on anything NK promises, and what little international support and goodwill NK might have had has largely evaporated. How many people would actually be upset if someone invade NK and instigated regime change tomorrow? A great deal fewer than before NK pull this latest stunt I would expect.

In terms of the balance of power, the additional military assets that the US deployed to the region for this crisis may well stay for the long haul, greatly eroding what little deterrence power NK nukes and long range missiles might have had. This latest incident might harden Seoul's resolve and commitment to investing more in its military to better defend against NK.

I would not be surprised at all it a big deal for Israeli Iron Dome missiles are signed sometime in the near future.

NK has always played a delicate balancing act between 'I don't want to mess with that' crazy and 'plain unpredictable out of control crazy', and I think they step over the line this time.

If someone is 'I don't want to mess with that' crazy, you wanna give them a wide birth as its just not worth your while to mess with them. But there is an unspoken mutual understand that so long as you don't mess with them, they won't mess with you. But if someone is plain unpredictable out of control crazy, you honestly don't know if they are going to come and try to eat your face even if you left them the well alone. And when faced with that sort of crazy, you are very tempted to buy a gun and deal with the lunatic once and for all before he has the chance to do any real damage to you. And its not just the Americans and South Koreans who are proven to having such dark thoughts.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
North Korea has literally nothing to lose all the way to the point of starting a war. They can do anything up to that point and not suffer anything worse than they have it now. It would be foolish for the Americans to think somehow after Iraq and Afghanistan, North Korea would be different and a cinch in their favor. And that's why they want China to do everything for them. If whatever they want China to do against North Korea fails, the US literally loses nothing. American politicians with no regard for China's concerns and their apparent reluctance to address them... China should do nothing. Let people like John McCain stew. If they want this, they should pay for it. I've been seeing a lot of stories in the news on how the South Korean people aren't concerned about these latest events and it's nothing new to them. So whose fake outrage are the Chinese suppose to coddle?

If a war breaks out China should move into North Korea establishing a humanitarian no-go zone. It would probably be safe to do because the US will be knocking out any nuclear and ballistic missile facilities from the start. They can tell the North they won't allow the US and South Korea in to this area. And then China can tell the US and South Korea this is a refugee safe-zone. Then when the North Korean government is about to fall, China should roll troops down as far they can. If South Korea wants North Korea, it will be under conditions and agreements.
 
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