Jian's vs F-22/F-35??

I fear we will not know a manufacturer published (could be different from actual, of course) facts about j10 in some years to come. At least not until its been exported to some third country. So we can only assume. We can compare with similar aircraft.

Doing that, i would say the current j10 has range, radar and avionics comparable to f16 block 30. I would say it has some 5% greater thrust to weight ratio to all blocks in use by USAF. I would say it would perform slightly worse to f16 at low speed/low altitude and slightly better at higher altitudes and higher speeds.

So overall, in bvr a2a i'd say its on par as f16 block 30. In wvr it could probably consistently win even against f35, though its unlikely we'll see that wvr fight. As for a2g, who knows. It's probably still pretty bad at that, but will only get better with new systems integration. Design wise, it has the potential to be just as good of a multirole plane as f16 is.


Of course, we're not talking about f16, the thread talks about newer gen planes. One on one, it has close to zero chance against a raptor. Any other matchup impossible to assume as there's too many variables. Of course, there is always some chance. F15c have been able to down a raptor in one-on-one dogfight exercises, if im not mistaken - one out of 9 times. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, i've read articles based on interviews with those f15 pilots. I do think j10 makes for a better dogfighter than f15c is. So if somehow, anyhow, a j10 can stay alive to get to dogfight range - it has some chances. perhaps 1 to 8, perhaps more. In that view, i do actually find j10 to have slightly bigger chance against a raptor than a j11 has.

As for f35... its really hard to tell. That thing should be operational around 2012. By that time j11 and j10 will be also more capable than they are now.

Still, they will probably still be lacking in a2g, and bvr a2a. Only this time i do think some new generation of large j11 borne radar could make a difference, compared to j10 radar. I do believe even in bvr we might see some f35s being downed, albeit probably not so much when j11 is going head on towards f35. When it comes to a dogfight - i'd put my money on j10 again, it should perform pretty well against f35.

One off topic question though. In dogfight every second counts. So what do f22, and especially what will f35 pilots (since i see that plane getting itself into more dogfights than f22) say about that 2 second delay from the moment they press fire button to the moment the sidewinder actually flies off?

tphuang said:

As for the kill ratio, if the kill ratio is 1:1 or even 2:1, that would be considered unacceptable by the Americans in my opinion.

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Agreed. 3:1 would be too much, too.

tphuang said:

Another thing you guys failed to remember is that China actually has the most number of BVR capable fighters outside of US

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Hmmm, are you sure about this? Even when we wrongly assume all the bvr planes are equal i would think russians still fare better, and are second only to US with almost 1400 bvr capable fighters.

tphuang said:

100 J-10
26 su-27ubk
100 su-30mkk/2
120 J-11
150 J-8F/H

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I have couple of questions. Aren't initially bought su27sk able to use r-27 missiles? If not, isnt that something that should be remedied? Any plans to modernize old su27sk?
Whatever happened to that claim that china stopped producing j11 after some 105 planes assembled? Are you perhaps counting in the rumored j11b production? I would seriously think, even if theres some dozen or so of those out there already, that they're not actually in service but are still being tested. Same thing for j-10, even if there are 100 produced, which seems to be absolute high end estimate nowadays, i would think no more than 3 squadrons are actually operational.

yeah, I'd think 3:1 is probably unacceptable too, but then it also depends on which fighters are doing the fighting. If it's 3:1 against J-10/J-11, then USAF can probably live with it, but if it's 3:1 against all Jians, it would be unacceptable.

As for the BVR part, I'm not counting su-27s that can fire R-27s as BVR capable fighters. Even the Russians themselves said that su-27s kill from WVR, but su-35 kill from BVR. If you look at the current RuAF, only a limited number have R-77 support.

I would disagree with the part about J-10 being less manuverable than F-16 at lower speed. The fact that it has 3D in TVC in the latest models should give it the advantage over F-16 in all scenarios. Anyhow, without more information about the J-10 radar and EW suite, we can't really get a complete picture of its performance against other fighters in BVR.

Well, J-11 production stopped for a while and restarted. The question is what kind of J-11 are being produced right now? The su-27sm standard or the J-11B standard, it's not known really. You might possibly see some J-11Bs that use AL-31Fs, because of the low WS-10A production rate. As for J-10, there are approximately 4 operational regiments of it: (a typical regiment in pla is around 25 planes)
one in FTTC
one in 44th division
one in 2nd division
one in 3rd division

This is from the serial numbers of the photos we've identified. Actually, nothing have been identified for 2nd division in photos, but it's been mentionned by many people that there is a regiment in 2nd division and also, there is a huge gap in J-10 count from the serial number of the last fighter in 44th division and the most recently identified 3rd division J-10.

r-27 thing just doesn't make sense to me. those missiles have been a mainstay of russian air forces since mid 80s, sporting nice range. So you're saying that russians didn't use them for bvr fights? Where is logic for that? I know you've repeatedly said that you have a personal lack of trust towards the r-27 but isnt it possible its still at least as capable missile as the generation preceeeding it, like r-23? For god's sake, mig23 used r-23 in the 70s. I am not talking about the quality of these missiles, i'm just saying that it's very hard to believe that mig23 can use bvr missiles back in 70s, but su27 from the 90s cant use its bvr missiles for bvr ranges. Sure, maybe the missile sucks at great ranges, but i'd think it does work. Besides, info i have on r-27 doesnt make it such a horrible piece of work at all but rather quite on par with later versions of aim-7.

I thought tvc for j10 are not yet put into service. Only the latest order of 150 engines has been tvc ones, no? So at some 3-4 planes per month production, knowing how many non tvc al31 engines there are left i wouldn't expect tvc equipped j10 to be produced before end of this year. But i may be wrong, of course. I do agree that with tvc j10 is bound to be more manuverable in every flight regime.

That's great news for china, that j-11 production restarted. Can you give me some official announcement links for that? Also, the contract with russians was for chinese made su27sk, no? Wouldnt the much rumored j-11b be a breach of that contract, meaning the contract would have to be renagotiated? If so, why haven't the russians publicized anything about it?

ws10a may have low production rate but that j11b production rate can't be high either. I thought the point of j11b is that it is not only a superior su27 version but true 100% indigenous flanker. Do you happen to know anyhing bout j11b capabilities? is it planned to be multirole (im especially interested in stand off a2g capability) or mostly air superiority?

Totoro said:

r-27 thing just doesn't make sense to me. those missiles have been a mainstay of russian air forces since mid 80s, sporting nice range. So you're saying that russians didn't use them for bvr fights? Where is logic for that? I know you've repeatedly said that you have a personal lack of trust towards the r-27 but isnt it possible its still at least as capable missile as the generation preceeeding it, like r-23? For god's sake, mig23 used r-23 in the 70s. I am not talking about the quality of these missiles, i'm just saying that it's very hard to believe that mig23 can use bvr missiles back in 70s, but su27 from the 90s cant use its bvr missiles for bvr ranges. Sure, maybe the missile sucks at great ranges, but i'd think it does work. Besides, info i have on r-27 doesnt make it such a horrible piece of work at all but rather quite on par with later versions of aim-7.

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I'm not sure about r-23 or r-27. I guess the latter active-guided version of R-27 are considered to be BVR AAM. Anyhow, I believe what the sukhoi person said was "if a flanker shot you down and you can see it, it's su-27, it you cannot see it, it's su-35". and no, I don't have much faith in the sparrow either.

I thought tvc for j10 are not yet put into service. Only the latest order of 150 engines has been tvc ones, no? So at some 3-4 planes per month production, knowing how many non tvc al31 engines there are left i wouldn't expect tvc equipped j10 to be produced before end of this year. But i may be wrong, of course. I do agree that with tvc j10 is bound to be more manuverable in every flight regime.

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The first 50 J-10s are not equipped with TVC, but all the recent ones and future ones should be equipped with TVC. Let's put it this way, the last signed order of 100 AL-31FNs are to be all delivered by the 3rd quarter of this year. 2/3 of the order have already been delivered, because CAC is in such desperate need of engines to equip the J-10s.

That's great news for china, that j-11 production restarted. Can you give me some official announcement links for that? Also, the contract with russians was for chinese made su27sk, no? Wouldnt the much rumored j-11b be a breach of that contract, meaning the contract would have to be renagotiated? If so, why haven't the russians publicized anything about it?

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Yes, it was originally supposed to be sk, but all the J-11A has the upgrade that has 2 color MFDs and the N-001VE radar for R-77 support and concurrent engagements. The news about J-11A production is getting more confusing by the minute:
1. first, Kanwa said that China has resumed production of su-27sk (which is not true, since it's actually the smk standard)
2. then, the Russians are now saying that the production never got suspended
3. then, you have the Chinese who are saying that they are producing J-11B and makes not mention of J-11A
Not sure the legality around J-11B. I would guess SAC has something worked out with Sukhoi.

ws10a may have low production rate but that j11b production rate can't be high either. I thought the point of j11b is that it is not only a superior su27 version but true 100% indigenous flanker. Do you happen to know anyhing bout j11b capabilities? is it planned to be multirole (im especially interested in stand off a2g capability) or mostly air superiority?

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they basically took the avionics on J-10 and put it on J-11B, so it will be intended as an air superiority fighter like J-10.

tphuang said:

they basically took the avionics on J-10 and put it on J-11B, so it will be intended as an air superiority fighter like J-10.

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Does that mean j-10s radar? do we even know what radar j-10 has? Also, with more space in the nose, wouldn't it be a waste to put a smaller radar made for j-10 in the larger flanker? Or is it using older russian radar that has somehow been itegrated with chinese weapons too, like pl-12?

Also, did you mean to say that j11b is similar to su27smk standard, capability wise, only difference being its using chinese weapons? If so, what is the difference between smk and sk flankers?

Totoro said:

Does that mean j-10s radar? do we even know what radar j-10 has? Also, with more space in the nose, wouldn't it be a waste to put a smaller radar made for j-10 in the larger flanker? Or is it using older russian radar that has somehow been itegrated with chinese weapons too, like pl-12?

Also, did you mean to say that j11b is similar to su27smk standard, capability wise, only difference being its using chinese weapons? If so, what is the difference between smk and sk flankers?

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the radar is probably an expanded version of the J-10 radar. I had an argument with Crobato before on this issue. Even now, I'm not convinced that the J-11B radar is that much larger than the J-10 radar. I think China doesn't want to give the launch code for pl-12 to the Russians or the Russians want China to buy more AAMs, so they never got integrated.

J-11A - built to smk standard, basically just upgraded with N-011VE radar, glass cockpit, digital FBW?, OLS-31, but does not have any multirole capability
J-11B - uses a new design, based on su-27/30 obviously, but I'm guessing a lot of the material used are changed, Chinese tend to use more composites and maybe some other changes, not sure. It was originally said to use all Chinese avionics, missiles and engines.

We certainly know _who_ the J-10's radar maker is.

Go to . Official company website. Check the pic of the J-10 in it.

Also makes the radar on the J-8H, J-8F and J-8IIM, J-7G, China AWACS, contending for FC-1 and J-11B contract.

While not as good as ARH missiles, SARH missiles are still deadly, especially at closer ranges. They're more ECM resistant and can lock on to targets fast. The thing is, you need to formulate tactics and stick with it.

First rule of BVR --- Never fire your missiles at maximum range if you want to actually hit something.

Second rule of BVR --- You must keep your target at your radar's FOV at all times. Whatever you do, never lose sight of him.

Third rule of BVR --- Ripple fire. Use the first missile to put the target on the defensive or cause maneuvers to lose speed and energy. Fire the second missile when you reach a closer range.

Fourth rule of BVR --- Your RWR is your life. Master it quite well.

Compared to the R-77, the R-27R actually has some surprising advantages. The seeker has double the acquisition range of the R-77, meaning it would start hunting around 32 km or so. Prior to that, the missile relies on command updates to its datalink.

The R-27ER in particular has a longer range and kinematic performance over the R-77. Combined with the seeker's range, you might probably have a missile with better endgame performance.

The R-27T/ET have infrared seekers. At perhaps *ideal* conditions, they might be able to lock on to a target up to 32km in the front hemisphere. There you can use them like a fire and forget missile, except that it isn't going to warn the target's RWR. I kind of consider them like larger dogfight missiles. They may not be as maneuverable as the R-73, but they sure got a lot more moxie to keep chasing down the target.

Been playing Lo-Mac for a while. I'm quite surprised what the basic Su-27 can do. It's predecessors wasn't that good, made assumptions on the Su-27 that turned out to be wrong. As more data became declassified, including a manual, all the avionics was updated to match the new data.

The situation on the Su-27 has really become muddled on the SK/J-11A/SKM/J-11B issue.

Did China purchase the SKM upgrade? At 5 million per plane, upgrading over 100 planes would be such a bundle it won't avoid the news. So far there is no news, and if there is, it should have been announced last year.

Did China purchase the SKM upgrades only for new planes? This might slip under the press radar because the contract amounts will be much smaller and in frequent intervals. Unfortunately, the upgrade should be considered a package. China purchasing OLS-31E seperately suggests that China is simply just cherry picking what it cannot duplicate locally, or if duplicated, has not matched the performance of the latest Russian equivalents.

Current J-11 standard is an upgraded SK. The N001VE radar is the same N001 with an added component so it can support the use of the R-77. The cockpit likewise is the same. The standard Su-27 cockpit has one CRT MFD for standard. In addition to that, a second MFD is added on top. It looks more like a hack on a traditional Su-27 cockpit instead of an all digital one. Because of the OLS-31E, the upgraded J-11s now feature the same IRST from the Su-30s instead of the OLS-27 used standard on Su-27s before. This OLS has much better range and can be used to laser designate targets on the ground during a dive. Potentially, this J-11 can now divebomb using LGBs.

I presume by now, that China now manufactures the airframe completely by itself. Previously it imports parts of the airframe through kit bundles, and each kit has less and less components as it goes along, as China replaces them more and more with indigenous parts.

The SMK is a proposed variant that never actually made it to production stage. It would feature retractable IFR, offset IRST from the Su-30 series and multirole slotted array Zhuk-27 radar. It is capable of using R-77 and a variety of AGMs.

The SKM (not SMK) has the same functionality as above. Instead of Zhuk-27 it uses the N001VEP radar from the MKK, and uses a modified version of the MKK's front cockpit plus one more MFD. In fact, this version was intentionally tailored for Chinese market and it surprised the Russians why the Chinese didn't buy into it. The obvious commonalities between the Su-30MKK and this model would have made a seamless integration of common training and weapons stock.

The J-11B takes off where the last J-11 left. The Russian radar is replaced by a Chinese radar, and inevitably the AL-31F with the WS-10A. it seems to me that this is more of a goal being achieved step by step. I would not be surprised to see J-11s with Russian engines and Chinese radars. I suspect that OLS-31E might still be used. There might other things be replaced such as in the airframe construction, use of digital FBW, digital glass cockpit, etc,. It's not clear if the improvements will come in gradually or in phases.

Two questions which still bother me.

---Did China manage to modify the N001VE to use the PL-12 missile on its own? This might have something to do with the story of one software programmer being able to hack the software code of the N001 radar and disassemble it.

---For sure China is testing an indigenous radar for use on J-11s. How close or far away are they from completion? Has it already been implemented?

For one thing, in China, because of the large volumes, heavy conservatism and static bureaucracies involved, things are done with a certain momentum. Just because new development happen or get certified, does not mean that an existing programme, now running with a substantial momentum of its own, cannot easily be rerouted into a new direction. Momentum will keep some older programs going for a while.

well, okay, maybe smk is not the right designation for j-11a, but it is using a upgraded avionics over the original sk.

I'm not sure if they modified the avionics on J-11A to fire PL-12, but I doubt it, because otherwise, China would not still be importing as much R-77 as it is doing.

As for R-27, I always thought that even though it does have bigger/more power seeker, that advantage is compensated by the fact that it is so huge, so that it's much easier for the enemy fighter to detect. Also, I'd think that it would be less manuverable at that size.

Also Crobato, any idea on the capability of the Chinese EW suites?

One thing about RWR suites. They don't really detect missiles, only their emissions, and the telltale emissions from the launching plane.

Because the R-27 does not emit, you don't detect this missile at all.

If someone fires an ARH missile, R-77 or AMRAAM, your RWR only tells you that you are currently being tracked. In a good RWR system, it should be able to tell you what sort of emissions you are getting, and it can identify between ships, AWACS, long frequency ground radar, SAM tracking radars, fighter RWS (Range While Search), TWS (Track While Scan), and CWI illuminnation. It should tell you that by giving a different tone for each, and by displaying or lighting up a symbol. In addition, your RWR will also tell you the heading and the intensity of the signal. With experience, you can sort of estimate the distance and direction of whoever is making that emission. Your RWR will go full alarm and blink red when it gets CWI or Continious Wave Illumination. That means something has locked and shining on you strongly and is headed your way. CWI is basically what all missiles guide upon.

When after you are under TWS, then suddenly your RWR goes CWI alarming, with the intensity indicating something very close, that means an ARH missile has lite up within your vicinity and you only got seconds to react with your life.

When your RWR goes CWI, but the signal strength indicates something that is quite far, you can check your heading, then your radar or HUD displays, then you confirm its the enemy fighter that is now lighting you up, and is getting ready to launch a SARH missile. Usually your reaction is to break the radar lock.

Now the funny thing is, he does not necessarily have to fire off a missile, but putting you in lock puts you in the defensive. You really won't know if he actually fired or not from the RWR unless you can spot the missile in your radar. You only know aware of being locked on. He can fire from a distance, or he may wait a while closer before firing his missile. Or he may fire two missiles already. You won't really know, only that you are being radiated upon.


As for Chinese EW suites, i don't know. Thats stuff is just classified. Everything EW around the world is just plain secret. Saying one country has better EW than another, for me, is just a statement of guess, faith and bias, with no actual accessible data to back these statements up.


One thing I must add. China has imported a lot of R-27, and so did India. Both countries won't be importing large quantities of R-27s if they're really that bad. The ones that missed in Eritrea were described to have been handled badly, possibly damaging their electronics, or the heat and humidity affected them. We can only assume that since then, the R-27s have become better and more refined with each batch. The missiles China imported include the extended range R-27ER.