Jian's vs F-22/F-35??

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AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I wasn't talking about that but that is just an another example of over-hyping one's capabilities. Yeah, on paper a lot of things can beat this or that but in real war situations that's another story.

Now back to what I was referring to was weapons systems that don't live up to the hype. Since you seem to be new here, this is deja vu with things that have been debated here over and over again. The mods probably don't want rehashing of stuff that's been said before. If you want to be enlightened, you can read all the threads if you want specifics. You haven't said anything or brought new discussion here that all any other person of your view has brought before. I can go through all the Western systems that were hyped and then show all the Western predictions on Chinese systems that were wrong, but like I said before, you can read it in past posts yourself. Just like you can go on thinking that the J-10 is the Lavi but as has been discussed before you can't show anything inside and out that is an exact copy of Western technology. Same with your assumptions about the J-XX. Do you have proof when no one else seems to know? Speculating conclusions based on what's being speculated doesn't make it so.
 
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Jeremy Sun

Banned Idiot
AssassinsMace said:
I wasn't talking about that but that is just an another example of over-hyping one's capabilities. Yeah, on paper a lot of things can beat this or that but in real war situations that's another story.

Now back to what I was referring to was weapons systems that don't live up to the hype. Since you seem to be new here, this is deja vu with things that have been debated here over and over again. The mods probably don't want rehashing of stuff that's been said before. If you want to be enlightened, you can read all the threads if you want specifics. You haven't said anything or brought new discussion here that all any other person of your view has brought before. I can go through all the Western systems that were hyped and then show all the Western predictions on Chinese systems that were wrong, but like I said before, you can read it in past posts yourself. Just like you can go on thinking that the J-10 is the Lavi but as has been discussed before you can't show anything inside and out that is an exact copy of Western technology. Same with your assumptions about the J-XX. Do you have proof when no one else seems to know? Speculating conclusions based on what's being speculated doesn't make it so.
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1. Okay, fine. Innocent till proven guilty. I'm not saying J-10 is an exact copy of Lavi, but it's suspicious that it took a lot of inspiration from Lavi, I mean the early J-10 model is just about the same as Lavi, though the new design in J-10A is quite different.

2. No one is hyping anything. F-22 is darn good, because its radar can detect 275 km, because it can supercruise at Mach 1.5, because it has two Cray supercomputers, and I'm not even gonna go further. It's no hype brother, it's reality.

3. J-XX is still a myth. No one can be sure that there is such a project. It may not even exist.

4. This was a Jian's (including J-7/8/10) vs F-22/35, so J-XX shouldn't have been talked about in the first place. Oh, and BTW, F-35 shouldn't be talked about either, because, like J-XX, it still doesn't exist.
 
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kickars

Junior Member
Jeremy Sun said:
I'm not saying J-10 is an exact copy of Lavi, but it's suspicious that it took a lot of inspiration from Lavi, I mean the early J-10 model is just about the same as Lavi, though the new design in J-10A is quite different.
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Strange??? Where do you get the idea of 'early J-10 model is just the same as Lavi' from? Any hard evidents(photos)? Don't tell me you just heard it from somewhere on internet. Coz as far as we all know here that the very first J-10 prototype looked exactly the same as the latest J-10A (different paint job though). Please, do some research before making such a statement.

Oh, who says we have to discuss aircrafts which are already in service? As far as I know there isn't such a rule on this forum. So we can discuss any aircrafts' VS we like here.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
1. Okay, fine. Innocent till proven guilty. I'm not saying J-10 is an exact copy of Lavi, but it's suspicious that it took a lot of inspiration from Lavi, I mean the early J-10 model is just about the same as Lavi, though the new design in J-10A is quite different.

2. No one is hyping anything. F-22 is darn good, because its radar can detect 275 km, because it can supercruise at Mach 1.5, because it has two Cray supercomputers, and I'm not even gonna go further. It's no hype brother, it's reality.

3. J-XX is still a myth. No one can be sure that there is such a project. It may not even exist.

4. This was a Jian's (including J-7/8/10) vs F-22/35, so J-XX shouldn't have been talked about in the first place. Oh, and BTW, F-35 shouldn't be talked about either, because, like J-XX, it still doesn't exist.
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I'm sure if Israel had a part it was consulting. But anyone can claim everything is American or Russian/Soviet then by that logic.

I never said that the F-22 isn't the best fighter in the world. But as you said patriotism pulls the wool over people's eyes. The F-22 is no different. If the F-22 was so secure why not export it to even the closest of allies. If the Chinese are as inept and backwards as people say, then selling it to Japan would be no problem. Then there's this paranoia that contradicts the stereotypes that a Chinese spy only has to simply look at it to reverse engineer. But no one has to worry about that because the Chinese don't have the technolgical capability to copy advanced F-22 technology. Then why not sell the F-22 to Japan? ... Confusing.

Just having it fly around near potential adversaries exposes information that can be used against it. That's why the F-22 stays clear from areas of the world where someone can learn a thing or two. Just like what the Serbs did with F-117s flying over them constantly. The F-22 may still be the best fighter in the world but it too doesn't live up to the hype or the Pentagon wouldn't be so worried about selling it. They know what potential adversaries can learn from it flying around. Meaning it can be exploited by conventional means.

You don't think China is even working on a counter to the F-22? What happened to your estimate of 30 years until first flight? Wouldn't China have particpated with Russia in a 5th generation fighter if they don't have anything at work to counter the F-22? What's China doing then? If China is spinning on its inept and backward heels, then why all the alarm over China's military? There should be no worry at all.
 
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zyun8288

Junior Member
Jeremy Sun said:
Please don't compare conventional armed forces vs armed forces warfare with armed forces vs resistance/partisan forces warfare. They are totally different in nature. US military smashed Iraqi military within two weeks in 2003 and they have difficulty handling insurgent attacks, because insurgents are numerous and they don't fight in the open. Same story with Israeli armed forces vs Hezbollah. If Hezbollah fight with Israli forces in the open, they would be wiped out in no time, so they are using ambush and fighting "in civilian clothes" so they would not be easily targeted. As for J-XX vs F-22, that's a long shot away, considering it took about 30 years to make J-10 fly, and that's with heavy Israeli assistance (yes, a decade ago, I've seen an early model of J-10 on Huitong's site that looks exactly like Lavi). I'm not saying J-XX won't be able to match F-22, I'm just saying it's too early to talk about it now. F-22 is here and now, while J-XX is still a long shot away (and who know what might happen, maybe China will have an internal revolution again in less than a decade). Don't get me wrong, but I've seen patriotism blinding people to the extreme, like how Pakistanis claim they have the world's best pilots because they beat the Indian air force through superb training in 1965 and much less so in 1971 (due to Indian pilots getting more trained by then).
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I agree about your point that patriotim blinds peoples' eye, for example, your canadian patriotism has stopped you from finding out that J10 only took 18 years to get inducted into PLAAF. Also you are even blinded to the information about JXX on HuiTong's web site, where you got your J10=Lavi conclusion 10 years ago.

Budy, this is information age, don't stop absorbing new info:coffee:
 
sidewinder

sidewinder

New Member
renmin said:
The Americans would never have the nerve to nuke China or any other country. Neither would any other country use nukes. They are bluffing. Both the J-10 and J-11 can take on aircraft like the F-16, F-14, F-18, and F-15. There is still a possible chance these two fighters can take out a F-35 but a Raptor is out of their league. Perhaps the J-14 will be able to take on a Raptor.
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the americans are rapidly becoming capable of using nuclear weapons in wars. once THAAD becomes operational and ABM capabilities exceed defence requirements the united states will use nuclear weapons as they will no longer be threatened by chinas 12-24 long range icbm's. this wasone of main reasons to withdraw fron anti ABM treaty in 2001 as they saw russia was no more threat to them as russia was the only country with sufficient nukes to to saturate and overcome ABM sheilds
 
sidewinder

sidewinder

New Member
AssassinsMace said:
I'm sure if Israel had a part it was consulting. But anyone can claim everything is American or Russian/Soviet then by that logic.

I never said that the F-22 isn't the best fighter in the world. But as you said patriotism pulls the wool over people's eyes. The F-22 is no different. If the F-22 was so secure why not export it to even the closest of allies. If the Chinese are as inept and backwards as people say, then selling it to Japan would be no problem. Then there's this paranoia that contradicts the stereotypes that a Chinese spy only has to simply look at it to reverse engineer. But no one has to worry about that because the Chinese don't have the technolgical capability to copy advanced F-22 technology. Then why not sell the F-22 to Japan? ... Confusing.

Just having it fly around near potential adversaries exposes information that can be used against it. That's why the F-22 stays clear from areas of the world where someone can learn a thing or two. Just like what the Serbs did with F-117s flying over them constantly. The F-22 may still be the best fighter in the world but it too doesn't live up to the hype or the Pentagon wouldn't be so worried about selling it. They know what potential adversaries can learn from it flying around. Meaning it can be exploited by conventional means.

You don't think China is even working on a counter to the F-22? What happened to your estimate of 30 years until first flight? Wouldn't China have particpated with Russia in a 5th generation fighter if they don't have anything at work to counter the F-22? What's China doing then? If China is spinning on its inept and backward heels, then why all the alarm over China's military? There should be no worry at all.
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the only chance a j-11/xx has of defeating f-22 in WVR combat if it gets as close because by the time the j-11 radar detects a f-22 there might be the small problem that an aim120-c or equivalent might have cooked the j-11/xx.

and assuming that the j-11/xx gets within WVR the apg-79 radar of f-22 can be operated in electronic attack mode capable of completely disabling the weapons and avionics of any contemporary fighter in the world
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
sidewinder said:
the americans are rapidly becoming capable of using nuclear weapons in wars. once THAAD becomes operational and ABM capabilities exceed defence requirements the united states will use nuclear weapons as they will no longer be threatened by chinas 12-24 long range icbm's. this wasone of main reasons to withdraw fron anti ABM treaty in 2001 as they saw russia was no more threat to them as russia was the only country with sufficient nukes to to saturate and overcome ABM sheilds
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Under ideal test conditions anything can look like it works. And again do we have to repeat all the systems that have failed from the first Gulf War to the Israeli/ Lebanon conflict from last year? A lot of holes there that can be exploited.

And who says China will stick to it's 12-24 ICBMs. Is there some sort of law that prevents China from building more in response? Or is the default belief is China is incapable of making more ICBMs for some reason?

Again if there's nothing to worry about then why all the alarm over China's military?
 
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maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
I think the third-generation fighter combat with fourth-generation fighter is asymmetrical warfare,I think PLAAF generals are continually considered this issue.
I think,Chinese fighters are not yet one vs one with F22/F35 operations.
However, F22/F35 also have some weaknesses, and their weaknesses are not close to wrangle with each other, but also, they can't cruise at supersonic speed for very long time, some times,their engine still running.
According to their weaknesses, and will have to cope with the approach, however, has not yet been such combat examples.
So, if I say any idea will be perceived as naive.
 
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panzerkom

panzerkom

Junior Member
IMHO, the simple answer is: no.

The gap between stealth and non-stealth aircraft is as big as the gap between an aircraft with radar vs. an aircraft without it. The J-10 pilot's situation awareness will be reduced by that much.

So, I'd feel sorry for a J-10 pilot who has to go up against a F-35 in the real world.
 
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