JH-7/JH-7A/JH-7B Thread

Engineer

Major
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Engineer: that's garbage. Levcons have significantly reduced radar signatures and drag when compared to canard designs, while offering comparable levels of maneuverability. Whether you opt for canards, levcons, or lerxes is up to the plane designer and the mission needed, but you cannot discard levcons as a design approach altogether.

This is total b.s., and it is total b.s. because you have no evidence to back up your claims in either radar signatures or drag. But regardless of the accuracy of your statement, it has no bearing on my statement and my statement still stands: China can design planes with canards, it has no need for levcons.
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

@plawolf
"It would make sense for Xian to maybe make use of the advanced computing and machining tools as well as software and skills that CAC has developed in getting the J20 into the air instead of Xian duplicating the efforts at huge cost and delays."
There is probably intensive cooperation on the development of software for stealth, aerodynamics, structure strength and stiffness &c. Learning from the difficulties of each other makes both stronger.
 

Inst

Captain
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Look at the Russian example; they have canard fighters in their Su-30 line, but they ultimately opted to use LEVCONs in their PAK-FA design.

Your fundamental statement is flawed, then; if the Russians can design canards, why would they have gone to Levcons?

As far as drag goes, canards by virtue of being in front of the wing, create additional drag compared to a tail. They may provide additional lift in comparison to a tail, but it's not a free trade-off.

As far as RCS goes, the F-22 is dbsm -37 or environs. If you actually look at the paper that was posted, the canards on the J-20 are likely to be dbsm -30 (we had the post on THIS forum when we were discussing the effects of canards on J-20 RCS), even when made out of radar transparent and radar absorbent materials. It doesn't mean that the aircraft is totally unstealthy, but it results in limitations to its minimum RCS, putting it around the range of an F-35, not an F-22.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

@delft !

That could be a nice explanation !

A cooperation with Xian for the JH-XX and with SAC for the J-20.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Look at the Russian example; they have canard fighters in their Su-30 line, but they ultimately opted to use LEVCONs in their PAK-FA design.
That says completely nothing. The counter example is that China produced J-10 which has canards, and moved on to J-20 which also has canards.

Your fundamental statement is flawed, then;
There is absolutely nothing wrong with my statement. China designed planes with canards, continues to design planes with canards, have planes that have canards serving in the air force, will have more planes that have canards serving in the future. These are facts, how are they flawed? And canards themselves can be deflected to provide additional lift at low speed as seen in J-20 flight test photos, and additional lift at low speed is one advantage touted in levcon designs. In other words, canards already gave China the advantages offered by levcon, so China doesn't need levcon. This is a fact, so how is it flawed? With differential canards, China can already controlled vortices going over the wings of the aircraft, something which supposedly differential levcons offer to do. This again, shows that canards gave China another advantages offered by levcons, and again shows that China doesn't need levcon.

if the Russians can design canards, why would they have gone to Levcons?
Perhaps they want to avoid dealing with complex interactions that take place between canards and the wings? Perhaps it's worst -- they can't deal with the complex interactions at all, because Su-33 and Mig1.44 were designed before Soviet disintegrated? You imply Russian gave up canards assuming they think canards are no good, when there are whole lot of other possibilities. Again, the counter-example is China, which has designed planes with canards and is still designing planes with canards. If canards are not good, China wouldn't pursue it.

As far as drag goes, canards by virtue of being in front of the wing, create additional drag compared to a tail. They may provide additional lift in comparison to a tail, but it's not a free trade-off.
As far as drag does, wings by virtue being in front of the tail, create additional drag compared to canards. This drag disadvantage you have presented for canards is equally apparent in a traditional configuration.

As far as RCS goes, the F-22 is dbsm -37 or environs. If you actually look at the paper that was posted, the canards on the J-20 are likely to be dbsm -30 (we had the post on THIS forum when we were discussing the effects of canards on J-20 RCS), even when made out of radar transparent and radar absorbent materials. It doesn't mean that the aircraft is totally unstealthy, but it results in limitations to its minimum RCS, putting it around the range of an F-35, not an F-22.
And we have posts on this forum pointing out that the notion of canards being detrimental in stealth is b.s.

But this thread is about JH-7. If you want to argue about J-20 aerodynamics, feel free to continue it in the J-20 aerodynamics thread.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

An improved WS-9 won't give much thrust if the JH-7B wants to carry weapons internally.

I'm not sure what to make of the picture. It looks like it could be real, but remember there was that PS of the new china-russian helicopter a year or so back? Everyone was convinced at that as well...

For me, the picture of the plane so far looks too much like the F-35's side I think.

_BEL8167%20F-35A%20AA-1%20left%20side%20nose%20l.jpg

F-35pitottube.jpg


I was hoping for levcons, but evidently this plane lacks them.

That's the beauty of being shameless copycats; creativity is when the number of people you copy has become so immense you can start calling them "influences".

... But levcons would equate to copying the PAK FA wouldn't it?
Really man that was such a cheap shot...
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Look at the Russian example; they have canard fighters in their Su-30 line, but they ultimately opted to use LEVCONs in their PAK-FA design.

Your fundamental statement is flawed, then; if the Russians can design canards, why would they have gone to Levcons?

A statement I saw on defencetalk with regards to that was something along the lines of "saying levcons can do the same thing as canards is like saying thrust vectoring can replace control surfaces".

I'm not sure about the validity of the statement, but hey it sounds good.

Just because the russians put canards on their flankers and decided to go for levcons on T-50 means nothing. Maybe levcons reduced RCS sufficiently compared to canards while being able to retain some of the benefits of canards.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Hey Deino, you've been mentioend on stephen trimble's blog ^^
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Looks like things are gonna snow ball from here if we get more pictures again... I was wondering why the last week felt so low, PLA wise.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

A statement I saw on defencetalk with regards to that was something along the lines of "saying levcons can do the same thing as canards is like saying thrust vectoring can replace control surfaces".

I'm not sure about the validity of the statement, but hey it sounds good.

Just because the russians put canards on their flankers and decided to go for levcons on T-50 means nothing. Maybe levcons reduced RCS sufficiently compared to canards while being able to retain some of the benefits of canards.

levcon improve high aoa characteristics and bit of pitching moment change by mainly control vortex over main wing, (duh... the name is leading-edge, vortex control)

Levcon don't offer nearly the same amount of pitching moment control as classical non-coupled canards. ("classical" meaning lift, pitching momen and down wash affect only, no meaningful vortex and all the fancy stuff over the main wing)

In reality, closed coupled canards (j10, j20, etc) is a cross between classical canard and a levcon. canard both a vortex generator-controller and a direct pitching moment changer. vortex control + pitching moment change.

I am fully expecting that mig-29 guy now jumping in and correct me with his pseudo aero non-sense.
 
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